class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 22, 2023 8:28:56 GMT
I had my first ever encounter with a multi-line driverless metro when visiting Copenhagen last week.
Quite fun, and seems to work well.
Obviously the track layout is vastly simpler than LU so it can't be taken as some kind of 'proof of concept' for London.
It was interesting to note that the tunnels are permanently illuminated and there are signs every few metres telling you how far you need to walk to get to the next station. I do wonder about wheelchair users though, as the walkways did not look wide enough for some motorised wheelchairs/scooters, and even normal ones would be a very close to the edge.
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 22, 2023 12:24:19 GMT
The main thing here is that this was built to be driverless from the start - our UndergrounD system is very different.
Anyway, I travelled on the Copenhagen system some years ago, as part of a trip that included the rail / road connection with Malmo in Sweden and sampling the (then) brand new S-Tog suburban trains. I hope that you were able to sample these too as they re-wrote the rule book* with respect of carriage lengths and widths, so in their own way are more significant than the driverless metro.
I first sampled driverless metro trains in the 1980s - the VAL in Lille France and the SkyTrain in Vancouver Canada.
*) to be brief ... short carriages with a single axle at one end only (except for at one end of the train) which are wide enough for 3 + 3 transverse seating. An 8 car fully walk-through S-Tog train is about the same length as a normal four car train. The reduced overhang on the carriages when traversing curved tracks lets them be wider than normal - hence the ability to have 3 + 3 seating.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 22, 2023 13:11:31 GMT
Anyway, I travelled on the Copenhagen system some years ago, as part of a trip that included the rail / road connection with Malmo in Sweden and sampling the (then) brand new S-Tog suburban trains. I hope that you were able to sample these too as they re-wrote the rule book* with respect of carriage lengths and widths, so in their own way are more significant than the driverless metro. Yes, I did. Also, naturally, being in Copenhagen I had to visit Malmo. I wonder how much money Malmo tourism has made over the years on the back of 'The Bridge' (TV programme, not the actual bridge, although that must have helped). As an aside, if anyone finds themselves in Malmo, there is a delightful museum complex (Malmohus Castle) in easy walking distance of the station. |
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Sept 22, 2023 16:44:56 GMT
When I visited Copenhagen the only way to get to Malmo was by hydrofoil,mind you it was in 1974.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 23, 2023 7:03:00 GMT
Building a driverless metro is not a problem, converting a driver operated metro to driverless is slightly more difficult and so far only five lines have been converted,
The first was Nuremburg U2, converted 2009-10. From 2008 U2 shared part of its route which U3 which was built driverless, both are completely underground and both have motion detectors systems rather than platform screen doors although there have been some fatalities from passengers falling onto the tracks. There are no plans to convert U1 to driverless as it is partly above ground with too many possibilities of "false positives" from the motion detector system.
The second line to be converted was Paris Metro 1, completed in December 2012 after four years conversion work including the installation of Platform Screen Doors. During the conversion a mixture of driverless and driver operated trains were in service which also required negotiation with drivers union CGT. The deal included no redundancies for drivers who were displaced to other lines.
Singapore East West and North South were converted in 2017/18 but had the advantage of already having PSDs, installed in the subsurface stations when they were built 1987-89 and retrofitted on the open section stations 2009-12
Lastly Paris Metro 4 will be completed by the end of this year. Conversion was announced in April 2013, the contract was awarded to Siemens in January 2016 with the first driverless train forecast to enter service 2020 and full automation by 2022. The project was delayed partly by Covid and the first driverless train didn't enter service until September 2022.
In December 2022 RATP announced that Line 13 will be the next line for conversion although completion isn't expected until 2035
Glasgow Subway also has plans to introduce driverless operation with PSDs but as yet no date for starting the work. After almost 10 years of debate Transport for NSW have confirmed that 11 stations from Sydenham to Bankstown on the T3 line currently operated by Sydney Trains will be incorporated into the new Sydney Metro with driverless operation. The section will be shut down for a year from mid-2024.
And that is why I giggle when people talk about about driverless trains on the Tube...
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 23, 2023 8:09:34 GMT
Yes, as I said, it could not be taken as some sort of proof of concept for LU.
Apart from all the things you mention above, the sheer complexity of the interconnectedness of the Hammersmith & City, Met, District, and Circle lines would make handling of all the possible exception conditions incredibly difficult without direct human intervention.
Many, many, many, years into the future, it might happen, but I suspect that, if it does, there will be a core of drivers at some central location able to drive trains remotely.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 23, 2023 10:02:59 GMT
TfL did a feasibility study for driverless operation with the "New Train for London" project which stated that it would only be possible with PSDs and would have to be GoA3 with a member of staff onboard like the DLR rather than unattended GoA4. As the trains would be staffed with the equivalent of a PSA on board at all times "remote driving" wouldn't be necessary.
The report concluded that driverless operation would be possible on the Central, Waterloo & City and Piccadilly lines except on the Uxbridge branch which is shared with the Metropolitan line, As they wouldn't be able to fit PSDs on the Bakerloo line north of Queens Park driverless operation wouldn't be economically viable. The whole proposal was abandoned in 2018 as unaffordable
To the best of my knowledge there hasn't been any studies on driverless operation on other lines but obviously Richmond and Wimbledon branches on the District plus Amersham branch on the Metropolitan would present similar issues.
As you say many, many years in some currently unimaginable future when TfL has lots of cash to invest in upgrades and infrastructure. Certainly not before January 2028 when I am due to retire...
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 23, 2023 10:23:34 GMT
As you say many, many years in some currently unimaginable future when TfL has lots of cash to invest in upgrades and infrastructure. Certainly not before January 2028 when I am due to retire... God no. I was thinking more like 2038. And that's just to work it all out, not implement it. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Sept 23, 2023 11:51:19 GMT
I visited Copenhagen last year. Whilst on the train the signalling system failed and we came to an emergency stop in the tunnel, about 100m from one of the stations, and had to be detrained into the tunnel and back to the nearest station. Sadly I didn't get any decent pictures!
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Post by Chris W on Sept 23, 2023 22:00:49 GMT
The topic of driverless trains has been discussed again, and again... and again... and undoubtedly will be repeatedly rediscussed again and agan... and again... Until central government funding becomes infinitely more generous (less politically motivated/pro railway/pro UK* - please refer to my article of September 2023) than it isn't already... please read my articles in Rail Express [Mortons Media Ltd.] magazine:
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 24, 2023 9:50:11 GMT
Yes, I didn't start this thread to initiate another discussion about driverless trains on LU. I even specifically said as much (but, of course, you don't own a thread just because you start it).
I suspect that, even if there were the political will, it would take ~15 years to come up with a fully worked out and fully costed plan. Not only would formulating and costing this plan be enormously expensive, it would need to progress through a minimum of three parliaments.
So far all we've ever had is bluff and bluster from a few railway-ignorant politicians when there are strikes.
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