LU 4TC set - Railtours and heritage railway visits in 2023

These days AWS isn't enough. Sarah Siddons would need TPWS, OTMR and GSM-R fitted to run on the main line.

But not TPWS fitted. (Or OTMR ?) (as stated upthread).

Not insurmountable, but ££££.

As neither TOPS nor AWS abbreviations were explained, I won't bother with TPWS or OTMR.

One has to be careful with so called 'grandfather rights'. They were never automatic anyway, and nowhere near as powerful a reason as many would have you believe. Having once had a TOPS number is irrelevant.

I think I am right that SS has never ever run on NetworkRail lines under NetworkRail, hauling people on a railtour etc. It ran under BR, but British Railways was abolished in 1994, and I don't think SS has so worked since then (that is a question not a statement).

I suspect NetworkRail would require a complete review - and I would put money on SS would never get by on legacy rights alone.



Technically yes.

For £1m.

That is, a 1 followed by 6 zeros.

Some time back, I was informed that the cost of CBTC per vehicle type is in the region of £1000000 per type that caused a fair bit of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth re. battery locos.

As that was about 10 years ago now I suggest it might be a bit more now. Not £1m per vehicle, but per type.

SS being type unique (unless some wit suggests pulling JH out of Covent Garden) it would be £1m just for SS. Not sure anyone could justify that?


The combination of discussion is a lot of money to run on NR and a lot lot more money to run on LU CBTC.

Bear in mind too that the most accessible SW lines out of Waterloo are high on the ETCS list, that would be even more cost.

Personally once 4LM CBTC is complete I favour ferrying SS to IOW for a season or two now that something a big as D78 fits (which the naysayers always said the line could only ever be tube gauge for ever more) I am sure someone could conjure up some suitable stock for it work with ..... excuse me while I run for cover.

For the SSR, that's the amount Thales was charging to develop the software and design, supply and install the equipment required to convert Sarah Siddons to operate on 4LM CBTC.
It may be a somewhat excessive sum, but it's not purely an invented access charge, and originated from neither LU nor NR.

That was part in jest, but having thought about it, it is not as hair brained as first sight.

Not sure that the 8w are air braked though are they ? Or any of the existing IOWSR stock ? Or were the BR kettles over there Westinghouse brakes for push pull ? TBH I don't know.

May as well send over the ex NER ES1 Newcastle quayside BoBo as well, that can go top tail with SS.

Never say no, impossible, nothing is. 10 years ago you'd have been laughed off this forum if you dared suggest D78s would be on IOW.

Hmm, the hard and harsh reality of the direction our railways are going, and what it will likely mean for heritage operations.

I await the first conversion of a 'kettle' locomotive to full compatibility with ETCS with interest and excitement, but won't hold my breath as its likely that I will asphyxiate well before it happens (if ever).

I regret that I cannot answer whether Sarah Siddons only ran on the Southern in BR days or after privatisation too.


It will be interesting to see what happens with the route via Southfields, etc, seeing that the main service is with LUL S Stock, which I cannot imagine being made ETCS compatible. Maybe this is when this route will get its CBTC signalling with the physical train stops then being removed.

Heritage operations using a Met locomotive like Sarah Siddons and the NER ES1 Newcastle quayside BoBo have crossed my mind, albeit in model railway format.

I also see a full size human passenger carrying service as technically feasible, if the entire train has compatible braking systems (air / vacuum). However, the locomotives will likely be battery powered and the railway will be a leisure / heritage line. Maybe  the Co-Co LNER Woodhead 'Tommy' could join them!

Work is ongoing to fit ETCS to the LNER A1 steam loco Tornado, and it is also planned to be fitted to an LMS Black 5 (and a Class 55 Deltic) but I haven't immediately been able to find what state the works are on the latter two.
www.railadvent.co.uk/2021/10/ecml-upgrade-steam-locomotive-tornado-to-be-trial-fitted-with-in-cab-signalling.html
www.a1steam.com/tornado/news/tornado-details/etcs-installation-project-milestone

What does any of that mean ?

Please send smelling salts!!

As an aside, I wonder whether ETCS is as demanding as CBTC in how it controls the trains.

In other words, will it not need to know the full acceleration and braking profile of every train on the line, making it less technically challenging than CBTC - so therefore easier to implement?

yes, and possibly also diesel engines which do not need electrics to make them work

But when this does happen I suspect that people will be more interested in other things than railway nostalgia. But it might be that the trains at heritage centres (etc) will be used for more serious travel purposes than 'nostalgia leisure'.

The Carrington Event was a geomagnetic storm which hit the earth in September 1859. Telegraph communications around the world failed; there were reports of sparks showering from telegraph machines, shocking operators and setting papers ablaze. If such a storm hit today it would be likely to disable most of the electronic circuits we rely on. Satellites, and therefore GPS would be particularly vulnerable, as would the power grid.  

Many people have calculated that this was a once in 500 year event , but newer research from Japan suggest that similar event happened in 1770, 1872 and 1912 with lesser storms hitting in 1909 and 1989 the later likely causing the Quebec Blackout of the year. 

So without electronics the railways would be left with stream engines and may be some robust diesels. 

So much for the internet being up to date.😒

The 4TC set has been replaced by the Hastings Unit for the July UKRailTours trips.