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Post by Alight on Mar 22, 2023 19:42:50 GMT
www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/transport-london-spend-4million-naming-26535283.ampKey quote: "The Mayor has previously signalled that the lines would be named, not lettered or numbered, to reflect the capital's diversity." This is a shame as I know there were some great suggestions in the now-locked thread about lettering: districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/26169/separate-route-identitiesI think this could have worked: A-Richmond-Stratford B-CJ-Stratford C-H&I-West Croydon D-H&I-Crystal Palace E-H&I-Clapham Jct F-Dalston Jct-New Cross G-Goblin H-Watford DC (I not in use could be mistaken for 1) J-Liv St.-Cheshunt k-Liv St.-Enfield Town L-Liv St.-Chingford M-Romford-Upminster Would have meant the network retains its orange colour across all lines but different letters could be peppered across the map and signage. Conversely, separate line names will require 5x new colours for the map.
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Post by xtmw on Mar 22, 2023 22:44:57 GMT
It could also do with some simplicity across the status page, when storm Eunice hit, it was rather confusing seeing:
London Overground: No service between Euston and Watford Junction due to an obstruction on the track at Headstone Lane. No service between Clapham Junction and Wandsworth Road due to a signalling problem. No service between Stratford and Richmond / Clapham Junction due to obstructions on the track. No service between Liverpool Street and Enfield Town / Cheshunt and Chingford due to obstructions on the track. No service between Romford and Upminster. Severe delays between Barking and Gospel Oak and a reduced service is operating between Stratford and Richmond due to strong winds.
Could just be something like:
Gospel Oak to Barking Line: Severe delays due to strong winds
Euston to Watford Junction Line: No service due to an obstruction on the track
Stratford to Richmond & Clapham Junction Line: A reduced service is operating due to strong winds
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Post by brigham on Mar 23, 2023 8:29:23 GMT
"The Mayor has previously signalled that the lines would be named, not lettered or numbered, to reflect the capital's diversity."
I must brush-up on my buzz-words. What, exactly, does 'diversity' now mean?
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Mar 23, 2023 8:33:16 GMT
Use numbers or letters like the New York Subway, the cost would be much less, spending £4 million is such a waste.
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trainwizard
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Post by trainwizard on Mar 23, 2023 10:05:59 GMT
I was reminded of this survey thread: districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/30630/london-overground-route-names-survey The survey had some more creative ideas as well as serious ones. "The Mayor has previously signalled that the lines would be named, not lettered or numbered, to reflect the capital's diversity." I must brush-up on my buzz-words. What, exactly, does 'diversity' now mean? Personally I interpreted it as no Churchill, George, Charles Lines, etc but that could just be my optimism. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 23, 2023 10:07:54 GMT
I would be very surprised if using letters or numbers instead of names would save more than a trivial amount. The main costs will be in updating signage and publicity and you have to do that regardless of what name you choose.
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Post by trt on Mar 23, 2023 12:10:24 GMT
"The Mayor has previously signalled that the lines would be named, not lettered or numbered, to reflect the capital's diversity." I must brush-up on my buzz-words. What, exactly, does 'diversity' now mean? Something that happens when threads drift. But I get your point... that statement makes no sense to me. Surely it makes more sense to use a nomenclature reflective of the geographical extent of the service. There are now more than enough names of different travel lines to try to remember. I would also argue that there's lower costs in using a single branding with subdivisions because of the involvement of brand management agencies and time lost to explanations of a route, for example. |
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Post by Chris L on Mar 23, 2023 21:25:00 GMT
I would be very surprised if using letters or numbers instead of names would save more than a trivial amount. The main costs will be in updating signage and publicity and you have to do that regardless of what name you choose. Updating signage could be more difficult than you think. There are not many vitreous enamel colours left and there is a limit to the number of times you can fire panels. Stations like Willesden Junction will be a nightmare. |
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Post by Alight on Mar 23, 2023 21:47:13 GMT
I think the letters would be cheaper because all the existing LO signage/colours can remain but they just supplement with a few additional letter signs here and there.
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Post by Chris M on Mar 24, 2023 1:46:39 GMT
Updating signage could be more difficult than you think. There are not many vitreous enamel colours left and there is a limit to the number of times you can fire panels. Stations like Willesden Junction will be a nightmare. All of this is completely independent of whether the new identities are names or letters/numbers. Changing a sign from "London Overground" to "East London line" will cost basically the same as changing the same sign to "Line B". "Line 1"..."Line 8" will take exactly the same number of colours as giving the lines 8 different names. I think the letters would be cheaper because all the existing LO signage/colours can remain but they just supplement with a few additional letter signs here and there. The cost of changing from "London Overground" to "London Overground Line B" will be very little different to changing to "London Overground East London line". You'll need a little less vinyl and a little less ink, but that will be trivial. The number of signs, maps, posters, audio announcements, publicity materials, style guidelines, training manuals, corporate documentation, project documentation, etc. that need producing/changing will all be identical for both changes. The staff (and contractor) time to do all this will differ by only minutes over hundreds (possibly thousands) of cumulative hours ("Line 1" being slightly quicker to type than "North London line"), so the difference again is trivial. There are multiple reasons for and against both letters/numbers and names but cost is not one of them, cost is only relevant to (the equally legitimate) discussion about whether changing at all is value for money. |
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Post by cudsn15 on Mar 24, 2023 9:26:22 GMT
I think, generally, most of us like the idea of having nomenclature for these lines - and in a perfect world perhaps they should have been labelled as such on their transfer to tfl. However, after all these years and despite many of us on here worried about the confusing look of maps and the organic sprawl of the network, these lines have been hugely popular usually increasing ridership way beyond initial predictions and expectations and all without the need for a nomenclature.
As DWS says above £4M does seem a waste during tfl's current financial crisis for a system that currently already works and is only being done to fulfil the Mayor's manifesto pledge.
Personally, yes, I already name these lines in my head based on historical narrative (East London, West London, North London, Goblin, Lea Valley, Harlequin...) but in general parlance with friends and colleagues it's always " Get the Overground from point A-B" - there doesn't seem to be a need to specify the actual full route line. It's enough to just give the starting and ending point for that user.
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Post by A60stock on Mar 24, 2023 9:56:24 GMT
Do the lines have to get individual colours? Surely its just the names which need to change?
On a side note, it will be interesting to know which line keeps the current orange
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Post by Alight on Mar 24, 2023 11:42:09 GMT
I think the route with the most amount of stations would be the one that is kept orange, as this would be the most cost effective. On that basis, the Romford line would most definitely not be orange if they had to pick!
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Post by nidave on Mar 24, 2023 13:00:30 GMT
Could it not work like the dlr with different shades of orange for each line rather than having a unique colour?
Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread.
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Post by Chris L on Mar 24, 2023 13:09:48 GMT
Could it not work like the dlr with different shades of orange for each line rather than having a unique colour? In one word. No. Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote edited. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread. |
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Post by rapidtransitman on Mar 24, 2023 13:47:20 GMT
Slightly off-piste: why the TfL obsession with calling the Overground the 'London Overground'? It's not like there are Overground networks or lines in other cities... London Trams makes sense cuz there are numerous other UK tram networks. The Underground is not labeled as 'London Underground' is it? Calling it 'London Overground' everywhere is unnecessary and too long.
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Post by xplaistow on Mar 24, 2023 13:48:13 GMT
Now I'm not saying this would look good in practice but just to add to the debate: Would a possible solution to running out of colours be to give each LO line a unique pair of colours rather than a single one? For example, one could be orange & black, another could be orange & blue and so on.
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Post by downdc on Mar 24, 2023 16:25:18 GMT
Slightly off-piste: why the TfL obsession with calling the Overground the 'London Overground'? It's not like there are Overground networks or lines in other cities... London Trams makes sense cuz there are numerous other UK tram networks. The Underground is not labeled as 'London Underground' is it? Calling it 'London Overground' everywhere is unnecessary and too long. Yes it is! |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Mar 24, 2023 17:30:41 GMT
Slightly off-piste: why the TfL obsession with calling the Overground the 'London Overground'? It's not like there are Overground networks or lines in other cities... London Trams makes sense cuz there are numerous other UK tram networks. The Underground is not labeled as 'London Underground' is it? Calling it 'London Overground' everywhere is unnecessary and too long. Probably to differentiate it from the rest of the mainline network. I’ve similarly wondered why the BBC insists on referring to the London fire brigade/ambulance service. Which other fire service would anyone assume would attend a fire in e.g. Notting Hill? |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 24, 2023 17:43:03 GMT
Because the organisations concerned are named London Fire Brigade and London Ambulance Service. They aren't just the fire brigade and ambulance service that happens to serve the London area. Also, while Notting Hill is unlikely to see resources from neighbouring organisations, it does happen (in both directions) nearer the boundary (e.g. crews from both Essex and London brigades attended this fire in Loughton. Now I'm not saying this would look good in practice but just to add to the debate: Would a possible solution to running out of colours be to give each LO line a unique pair of colours rather than a single one? For example, one could be orange & black, another could be orange & blue and so on. That would probably work, if done well. Either as one orange tramline and one $other_colour tramline, or as two orange tramlines surrounding the other colour. Obviously only colours with sufficient contrast could be used (black definitely, yellow probably not). |
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Post by Chris L on Mar 24, 2023 17:59:58 GMT
Now I'm not saying this would look good in practice but just to add to the debate: Would a possible solution to running out of colours be to give each LO line a unique pair of colours rather than a single one? For example, one could be orange & black, another could be orange & blue and so on. That would probably work, if done well. Either as one orange tramline and one $other_colour tramline, or as two orange tramlines surrounding the other colour. Obviously only colours with sufficient contrast could be used (black definitely, yellow probably not). Having worked for vitreous enamel manufacturers the answer is it wouldn't work. Colours have to be applied in a a certain order to achieve the final result. The early colours will look wrong until the final firing. They are applied by screen printing so tramlines will never look good. |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 24, 2023 18:43:39 GMT
Why? Surely it's an issue of getting the alignment correct?
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Post by jimbo on Mar 24, 2023 20:09:16 GMT
There used to be a black and white version of the tube map which used different dot and dash combos between lines. Would an orange version work? -+-+-+ -o-o-o etc.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 24, 2023 20:16:50 GMT
There used to be a black and white version of the tube map which used different dot and dash combos between lines. Would an orange version work? -+-+-+ -o-o-o etc. Updated version: content.tfl.gov.uk/bw-large-print-map.pdf |
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Post by Chris L on Mar 24, 2023 22:10:20 GMT
Why? Surely it's an issue of getting the alignment correct? Just think about the thickness of the lines. There really is a limit to the number of times you can fire the panels. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 24, 2023 22:56:22 GMT
What about the thickness of the lines? Either you can get the alignment correct or you can't and fine alignment doesn't seem to be a problem elsewhere on the signs. The number of firings seems irrelevant - no one sign is going to have that many more colours and some are not going to have any if that colour is in use elsewhere on the same sign. For example see the sign at Enfield Town in this image by Bowroaduk on Flikr which has Orange (LO line), black (Enfield Town background), light blue (Victoria interchange), red (double arrow), yellow (Circle interchange), pink (H&C interchange), maroon (Met interchange) and dark blue (TfL Rail interchange) so any of those colours are possible without adding to the number of firings. |
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 25, 2023 12:09:14 GMT
re: names, there was a time when some of the present-day Overground routes were numbered, Euston - Watford Junction was 1, Broad Street - Watford Junction was either 2 or 3, depending on route, Broad Street - Richmond was 4. Croxley branch was 9 etc
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Post by taylor on Mar 25, 2023 17:32:42 GMT
In the not too distant future, we can expect that some current non-Underground, non-Overgraound National Rail routes totally within the TfL area will become part of the Overground / Underground networks. E.g.London Bridge to Beckenham Junction / West Croydon terminating routes and West Ealing to Northolt. It's already happened to the Waterloo & City. So, it's important to be forward-looking and think about what resignage could be necessary in the next twenty to thirty years as these additional routes are incorporated.
As a Paris-style RER designation with four letter train names appears to be unpopular, for suggestions, I'd designate all of the Euston Watford line Bakerloo. (positively simple compared to the current Northern Line network). Richmond - Stratford could revert to it's old name of North London Line, which many people still call it (even though it has two stations south of the river). And the Highbury & Islington to South London routes simply South London Line. Gospel Oak to Barking R. Goblin.
Personally, I don't think naming lines after monarchs or the Jubillee was a good idea, but I've got a feeling that there may be some political affection for certain 'diverse' names brewing.
Now let's see if I've lit the blue touch paper!
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Post by Chris L on Mar 26, 2023 3:32:04 GMT
What about the thickness of the lines? Either you can get the alignment correct or you can't and fine alignment doesn't seem to be a problem elsewhere on the signs. The number of firings seems irrelevant - no one sign is going to have that many more colours and some are not going to have any if that colour is in use elsewhere on the same sign. For example see the sign at Enfield Town in this image by Bowroaduk on Flikr which has Orange (LO line), black (Enfield Town background), light blue (Victoria interchange), red (double arrow), yellow (Circle interchange), pink (H&C interchange), maroon (Met interchange) and dark blue (TfL Rail interchange) so any of those colours are possible without adding to the number of firings. The number of firings is relevant if your adding additional colours to an Underground line diagram. |
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trainwizard
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Post by trainwizard on Mar 26, 2023 9:39:35 GMT
I wonder how adventurous TfL will decide to be with these renamings. They may attempt to be uncontroversial by keeping the status quo names (North/East London , Watford DC, Goblin, Lea Valley, ?Romford Upminster Shuttle?), but I hope they don't. Then again, I also hope they don't throw everything out of the window and start from scratch, or rename them after famous historical figures with no ties to the lines. The North London line will be confused for the northern, and both the North London Line and East London Line are long and extremely generic. Plus, the "North" London Line goes to Richmond and Clapham, and the "East" London Line spends most of its time in South London, also going to Clapham. While these names historically made sense, they now cover a larger route. In addition, while these names may be the status quo for TfL and those knowledgeable about trains, most commuters have never heard these names before. In terms of alternatives, I have heard the Brunel Line being thrown around for the East London Line, and I think this is one rare time that I approve the naming of a line after a person, since all routes pass through the Thames Tunnel, and both Isambard Kingdom Brunel and his father are relatively free of controversy, and due to Brunel's contributions to Britain's railways. I do hope they keep Goblin, as it is short, memorable, and well used. Watford DC can easily be shortened to Watford, which is a good description for a line that goes from Central London to Watford. I have heard calls to split the Lea Valley Line, but I think it's more simple to keep them combined. As for the name, I think TfL have a lot of room for creativity, and a variety of possible portmanteaus. Romford - Upminster could be the simplistic Emerson Line, but again, a lot of room for creativity. As for colours, I think it would be useful if each line had its own colour, which would help differentiate them further and finally end the orange spaghetti around Hackney on the tube map. And as taylor pointed out, we may have many other lines join the overground network, including a large amount in South London if the Mayor gets his way (see p9 for a map of the proposed routes). Having an orange stew south of the river would be extremely confusing, and by colouring each line now you don't have to do it later. As for the argument about limited colours, the Overground lines can use colours similar to underground lines because: the double lines on the map distinguish them from the filled-in lines, and you can use similar colours for lines on different sides of the map. For example, you could give the Watford line a colour similar to the District, Piccadilly, or Central. Keep in mind this is just my opinion and I am by no means an expert on any of this. |
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