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Post by roverlei on Jun 22, 2022 15:40:18 GMT
What is the role of gate line staff when they witness fare evasion, ie fare Dodgers pushing through barriers or following closely behind those who pay?
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jun 22, 2022 15:53:49 GMT
Nothing (providing things haven't changed since 2003)
Back when I was on stations we were told we were there to assist passengers and to assist with any operational situation we were trained/licenced to do.
We were told to leave fare dodgers to Revenue Control. The gateline is covered by CCTV and "The Rev" download the recordings
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Post by stapler on Jun 29, 2022 16:35:21 GMT
Do gateline staff routinely report eg a gate vaulter to Rev?
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Post by jamesb on Jun 30, 2022 9:12:39 GMT
Do gateline staff routinely report eg a gate vaulter to Rev? I see gate vaulters exiting not infrequently whenever I visit certain stations (e.g. entrance near bus station at Stratford). According to Wikipedia, pre-pandemic, 60 million+ people entered/exited Stratford station every year. Even a tiny minority of that volume of people could be quite a lot - if they reported every perpetrator that could be a time consuming process, especially when they are long gone within seconds. I wonder if these people might occasionally get stopped in other parts of the network, e.g. during ticket inspections on the DLR? |
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 30, 2022 15:25:44 GMT
I've been a victim of a fares dodger who tried to exit Gants Hill station by walking close behind me.
From what I recall, as I was walking through the barrier I paused to read the display showing what I had been charged for that journey and he bumped in to me! Prior to that I had no idea what was happening behind me.
A member of staff intervened because I had called out / shouted something - he told me what was happening (including that I was not being mugged) and started asking the fares dodger some questions.
A short while earlier the fares dodger had made a phone call (whilst the train was travelling above ground Leyton - Leytonstone) and I overheard him apologising for being late and assuring his contact that he would be there within 10 minutes.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 1, 2022 1:14:12 GMT
Do gateline staff routinely report eg a gate vaulter to Rev? Not when I was working on stations (Jan 1998 - Aug 2003) I was told that all CCTV recordings are scanned with face recognition tech, etc. to detect repeat offenders and build a profile of their movements. These idiots tend to use the same stations so the Revenue know who they're looking for and where they are going to be |
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Post by bpk on Jul 1, 2022 10:32:34 GMT
Do gateline staff routinely report eg a gate vaulter to Rev? There is an app installed on station staff iPads that is used to report fare evasion and anti social behaviour, which is then used to identify problem areas. Although some staff question its effectiveness. The consensus amongst station staff is that the Wide Aisle Gates fitted around 10-15 years ago have exacerbated fare evasion as they are easier to “double through” or simply push open. The old layout of having a manual gate controlled by staff is arguably more effective against fare evasion. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 2, 2022 2:08:19 GMT
Do gateline staff routinely report eg a gate vaulter to Rev? There is an app installed on station staff iPads that is used to report fare evasion and anti social behaviour, which is then used to identify problem areas. Although some staff question its effectiveness. The consensus amongst station staff is that the Wide Aisle Gates fitted around 10-15 years ago have exacerbated fare evasion as they are easier to “double through” or simply push open. The old layout of having a manual gate controlled by staff is arguably more effective against fare evasion. Manual gates require a member of staff to be physically at the gateline at all times, Wide Aisle Gates allow passengers in wheelchairs, with pushchairs, children or luggage to go through the gateline without assistance which leaves staff free to deal with other duties like assisting passengers at the ticket machines. With cuts to staff, first under Fit for the Future (inc. ticket office closures) and now due to budget cuts I doubt if there are enough staff to ensure that someone is always going to be at the gateline |
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Post by brigham on Jul 2, 2022 7:59:57 GMT
A similar mentality to unstaffed supermarket checkouts has probably been applied.
An acceptable level of crime is OK if it saves on wages.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 2, 2022 9:19:28 GMT
In reply to an FOI request in January 2020 TfL estimated that fare dodging cost £116m a year across all operations (TfL's total fares revenue 2019/20 £4751m) Estimated fare evasion rates were:- Buses 1.86% London Underground 1.9% DLR 0.58% London Overground 1.4% TfL Rail (western section) 1.99% TfL Rail (eastern section0 1.15% Trams 1.46% Ironically the DLR has the lowest fare evasion rate despite not having ticket gates at the vast majority of stations The obvious question is would an increased level of revenue protection be economically viable at a time when TfL is short of funding and needs to prioritise spending tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-2734-1920 |
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Post by Chris M on Jul 2, 2022 9:26:32 GMT
Ironically the DLR has the lowest fare evasion rate despite not having ticket gates at the vast majority of stations It does have the highest rate of ticket checks though, as there is a member of staff on every train who can (and pre-pandemic at least) usually does walk through the train checking tickets when not required to be at the front. Obviously this is not something a bus or train driver can do. |
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Jul 2, 2022 16:35:57 GMT
Interesting stats from aslefshrugged about fare evaders
I followed a guy though the barrier at Holborn. He must have been aged about 40-45
As he went through, "CHILD" flashed up on the screen.
Would this be included as an evader in those statistics?
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Jul 3, 2022 11:22:13 GMT
I have given my post of yesterday some more thought
The guy of 40(ish) who got through the barrier at Holborn with a Child's ticket will not count as an evader. He will count as a child paying the proper fare.
SO, this skews the statistics because it adds to the stats of people who have paid thus increasing the percentages, and reduces that stats of actual 'evaders'.
BUT, he's only evaded PART of the appropriate fare. AND, I am sure he is not unique.
I feel a useful exercise would be to monitor the number of children going through the barrier at a station such as Holborn on CCTV, then see how many "child" entrances there have been recorded at the gates
I KNOW it will not be accurate BUT, at the moment, stats are skewed by people using other people's "Freedom" passes OR Childrens tickets.
SO, the statistics we have seen are flawed, but they're the best we can get.
Personally, I think that's the area for further research, not vaulters.
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Post by brigham on Jul 5, 2022 8:00:38 GMT
This is similar to the person who pays for an ordinary TV Licence, then watches in COLOUR.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 5, 2022 8:06:48 GMT
This is similar to the person who pays for an ordinary TV Licence, then watches in COLOUR. Even if they only watch 'Police Squad'. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 5, 2022 8:08:40 GMT
When I worked on the gatelines the Revenue Control Inspectors would put blocks on child tickets, Freedom Passes, Staff Passes, etc. but as that was nearly 20 years ago I have no idea what they do these days.
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Post by trt on Jul 5, 2022 9:57:13 GMT
When I worked on the gatelines the Revenue Control Inspectors would put blocks on child tickets, Freedom Passes, Staff Passes, etc. but as that was nearly 20 years ago I have no idea what they do these days. They can set up a means of alerting when such are used. I've been stopped before now on a nominee pass. All was good though. A few years ago they cancelled all nominee passes, active and valid or not! Most embarrassing. I somehow managed to get to the exit gate-line (in central London) without having tapped in anywhere on the journey. Thankfully the staff at the station knew me and let me out. |
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Post by cudsn15 on Jul 6, 2022 7:19:53 GMT
My local station - Seven Sisters - is a big fare evader hub. We used to have regular full operation checks...but not seen one for a very long time despite nearly every time I enter/exit I still see all of the above. It's not just confined to the station either - the amount of low level lawlessness in the area has grown considerably since the pandemic - but there is zero visibility from any authority and consequently zero enforcement. This emboldens the perpetrators who then push the envelope further to see how much they can get away with. I guess this is the world we live in currently and we are going through a bad patch.
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on Jul 6, 2022 20:04:33 GMT
1.4 The Revenue Protection Programme (RPP) was paused during the pandemic while we focused on covid related priorities, ensuring our staff and customers were safe. We have reviewed and reprioritised our activities and plans to take account of changes in our operations, customer travel patterns and behaviour and our constrained financial situation. Reducing fare evasion will be challenging as we continue to re-establish ticket checking and new norms of behaviour, and the increased potential for fare evasion because of cost-of-living pressures. link There are approximately 450 officers that undertake revenue activity. We expect to save more than £9m in reduced revenue loss this year. Lots of details on matters raised here. |
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Post by jimbo on Jul 6, 2022 20:20:06 GMT
My local station - Seven Sisters - is a big fare evader hub. We used to have regular full operation checks...but not seen one for a very long time despite nearly every time I enter/exit I still see all of the above. It's not just confined to the station either - the amount of low level lawlessness in the area has grown considerably since the pandemic - but there is zero visibility from any authority and consequently zero enforcement. This emboldens the perpetrators who then push the envelope further to see how much they can get away with. I guess this is the world we live in currently and we are going through a bad patch. • Robbery is higher than the three-year PPA. • 46% of robberies are committed on train, 28% on platforms and 8% at station entrance/exit. The top three stations were Seven Sisters, Stratford and Kings Cross/ St Pancras. • Saturdays have 21% of offences, more than any other day. Key times were 1400-1700 and 1900- 2100. Thursdays have the fewest offences with 8%. link page 125 of 150 |
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Dom K
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Post by Dom K on Jul 6, 2022 20:41:59 GMT
My local station - Seven Sisters - is a big fare evader hub. We used to have regular full operation checks...but not seen one for a very long time despite nearly every time I enter/exit I still see all of the above. It's not just confined to the station either - the amount of low level lawlessness in the area has grown considerably since the pandemic - but there is zero visibility from any authority and consequently zero enforcement. This emboldens the perpetrators who then push the envelope further to see how much they can get away with. I guess this is the world we live in currently and we are going through a bad patch. • Robbery is higher than the three-year PPA. • 46% of robberies are committed on train, 28% on platforms and 8% at station entrance/exit. The top three stations were Seven Sisters, Stratford and Kings Cross/ St Pancras. • Saturdays have 21% of offences, more than any other day. Key times were 1400-1700 and 1900- 2100. Thursdays have the fewest offences with 8%. link page 125 of 150 Funny that I’m at Seven Sisters reading this waiting for my train. Maybe I should put my phone away and not read it! |
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Post by jimbo on Jul 7, 2022 5:16:17 GMT
My local station - Seven Sisters - is a big fare evader hub. We used to have regular full operation checks...but not seen one for a very long time despite nearly every time I enter/exit I still see all of the above. It's not just confined to the station either - the amount of low level lawlessness in the area has grown considerably since the pandemic - but there is zero visibility from any authority and consequently zero enforcement. This emboldens the perpetrators who then push the envelope further to see how much they can get away with. I guess this is the world we live in currently and we are going through a bad patch. • ..... The top three stations were Seven Sisters, Stratford and Kings Cross/ St Pancras...... link page 125 of 150 Seven Sisters only has five platforms compared with countless platforms at the other two top stations! |
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Post by cudsn15 on Jul 7, 2022 7:58:42 GMT
So far in Seven Sisters it seems to be mainly opportunistic crime - the sort that would normally be discouraged by a uniformed presence...but it's probably only a matter of time before they become so bold that they purposefully go out to mug and steal.
Going back to the topic in hand - reading Jimbo's kindly sourced report on the Revenue Protection Programme - a quick back of envelope calculation of 450 x staff on a conservative estimate of £30K a year equals some £13.5M. They expect to stem revenue loss by £9M. It sure does cost a lot to police these days.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 7, 2022 8:13:53 GMT
Presumably they have calculated that presence on trains doesn't do much good.
I think I've seen them dang'd revenuers* on a train once in the last thirty years.
* Bonus points to anyone who can say where that came form.
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Post by zbang on Jul 7, 2022 16:24:53 GMT
* Bonus points to anyone who can say where that came form. I'll take the points, then  . (But won't yet say to spoil it for others.) |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 7, 2022 16:36:14 GMT
* Bonus points to anyone who can say where that came form. I'll take the points, then . (But won't yet say to spoil it for others.) I'm hoping a certain high ranking army officer might get it. |
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Post by brigham on Jul 8, 2022 8:14:14 GMT
Sounds like something from Alabam', in which case General Lee might be that officer...
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. (But won't yet say to spoil it for others.)
