|
Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 10, 2019 8:08:17 GMT
If the South Harrow line is particularly prone to leaf-fall, and the S stock can handle the problem better than the 1973 stock, would it be possible for a couple of S stock (which already operates at both ends of the route) to be borrowed for the duration? How much modification would be needed to the line to make it usable by surface stock again?
|
|
|
Post by goldenarrow on Jan 10, 2019 11:00:52 GMT
norbitonflyer , There are a few bridges that would need to have their clearances altered, currently there are a smattering of 15mph speed restrictions around Sudbury Hill and North Ealing associated with this. Secondly the West end of the District has a sparse enough service as it is let alone with a stretch up to Rayners Ln.
|
|
|
Post by alpinejohn on Jan 10, 2019 11:02:48 GMT
"If the South Harrow line is particularly prone to leaf-fall, and the S stock can handle the problem better than the 1973 stock, would it be possible for a couple of S stock (which already operates at both ends of the route) to be borrowed for the duration? How much modification would be needed to the line to make it usable by surface stock again"
Good in theory, but as a temporary measure during leaf fall season it would probably be ruled out on cost grounds.
The S stock are a fair bit taller above rail height than even the D Stock which IIRC would only just fit under some bridges on the route - at very slow pace - as they were concerns the packing of the Permanent Way had raised the ballast and rail height in places since the route was last cleared for routine operation by sub surface stock.
A bit of internet digging (so not official numbers) indicates the following height to crown of roof above rail level for an empty unit (which is presumably as high as they are stationary - but as we all know trains in motion do bounce around sometimes so you would need a fair bit extra clearance?) - D stock 3620 mm - A stock - 3695 and S Stock 3686. If nothing else I suspect the whole route would need comprehensive checking (not cheap) and if that reveals the need for any substantive track lowering I doubt the cost would make sense if done simply to allow S7 stock to operate the route at normal line speeds during the limited leaf fall season. OK the cost might be justifiable if it became a permanent transfer of the branch to the District but given severe pressure on the TFL budget it seems highly unlikely.
I assume it would have to be S7s from the District to ensure they fit into the turn back siding at Rayners lane. Bye the bye there is of course one surplus S7 somewhere (the post Croxley orphan) so it might be possible to find stock.
However all that is without considering how they would work in terms of platform height and accessibility considerations, let alone things like in car route diagrams and indeed the tube map proper - as presumably this would be appear as a return of District services to Rayners or indeed Uxbridge and cessation of Piccadilly services.
|
|
|
Post by goldenarrow on Jan 10, 2019 12:12:14 GMT
alpinejohn , Just for clarity, the reversing siding at Rayners Lane is long enough to take S8’s as seen in the video below by CoachAlex1996.
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 10, 2019 12:38:20 GMT
It was indeed the Croxley orphan which made me think there might be an odd S stock to spare.
There is of course no reason why an open air section of a "Deep Tube" line couldn't be operated by surface stock should the need arise, provided (as is apparently no longer the case on the South Harrow line) they are not out of gauge. The converse has been rather more common - 1938 stock ran briefly on the Stanmore branch when it was still part of the Metropolitan Line, as well as on the East London Line and the Northern City, whilst 1973 stock has worked to Ealing Broadway on occasion - but surface stock can run, I believe, on the Picadilly between Hammersmith and Acton Town, and the Bakerloo/Jubilee between Finchley Road and Wembley Park. And of course British Railways diesels used to run on parts of the Central and Northern Lines until the 1960s
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2019 13:10:16 GMT
S stocks can not run along the branch as the signalling runs at 33 1/3 Hz and might interfere between the signalling and the train.
When the moved the 92 stock between Ruislip Depot and Ealing Common Depot via Rayners Lane the train had to be isolated for similar reasons plus no tripcock installed
|
|
|
Post by nig on Jan 10, 2019 13:50:08 GMT
S stocks can not run along the branch as the signalling runs at 33 1/3 Hz and might interfere between the signalling and the train. When the moved the 92 stock between Ruislip Depot and Ealing Common Depot via Rayners Lane the train had to be isolated for similar reasons plus no tripcock installed if thats the case how come pic shares the track with s stock at ealing acton and on the uxbridge branch ?
|
|
|
Post by nig on Jan 10, 2019 13:53:43 GMT
The trains are heavier after refurb and are worked a lot more than when new. Also in as delivered condition they were fitted with wheel slip/slide detectors but it didn't work and it was removed. The refurb was in 1999 although they have always had a few flats but nothing like we saw in 2016 so something somewhere must have changed
|
|
|
Post by rheostar on Jan 10, 2019 14:02:01 GMT
The trains are heavier after refurb and are worked a lot more than when new. Also in as delivered condition they were fitted with wheel slip/slide detectors but it didn't work and it was removed. The refurb was in 1999 although they have always had a few flats but nothing like we saw in 2016 so something somewhere must have changed Following the refurb, I believe that each car was about a ton heavier. When I was a guard I remember my driver pointing out the piled up redundant slip side equipment in Northfields depot. That must've been about 1979 so it didn't last long on the 73 stock.
|
|
|
Post by nig on Jan 10, 2019 14:11:58 GMT
I am fairly sure the new trains will come with some sort of wheel slip protection which should significantly reduce or largely eliminate the leaf fall issue? However even if the new trains are perfect from day one (which remains to be seen) that improvement in performance on the Piccadilly is still a few years ahead. So it is not unreasonable to think is there anything else which TFL could be doing to mitigate the problem until then. Earlier in this thread the idea of turning most services at Rayners Lane during leaf fall season was aired and appears to offer fairly immediate advantages of reducing Piccadilly track mileage at a time when serviceable vehicles are likely to be in short supply, with the side benefit of allowing the S8 services, which apparently are better equipped for poor rail conditions to make better progress. The idea that someone at TFL towers might be charged with devising a special leaf fall season timetable, like they do for the Met, does not seem entirely unreasonable. Whether or not that leaf fall timetable might be best achieved by using a small fleet to shuttle between Rayners Lane and Acton Town is presumably something the planners can weigh up at the same time. What people want is trains and reliable frequency. However perhaps the most worrying announcement made by TFL recently was the decision to shelve plans to replace the Piccadilly signalling system - which already seems to be responsible for an awful lot of service issues - indeed far more than due to defective trains due to wheel flats. Personally I would prefer to be on board an old train making good progress than a fancy new one which has ground to a halt thanks to faulty signalling. They do have a special leaf fall season timetable for the last 2 years and apparently this years was a joke trains were running late every day as soon as normal timetable came back in hardly any more late running so definitely needs to be looked at better for next year . Problem with acton town shuttle is the reversing at acton causes even more delays to the rest of the line as takes a while to detrain. and when go into the sidings slowly no trains can go eastbound till there fully berthed on the pic line
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2019 18:15:25 GMT
S stocks can not run along the branch as the signalling runs at 33 1/3 Hz and might interfere between the signalling and the train. When the moved the 92 stock between Ruislip Depot and Ealing Common Depot via Rayners Lane the train had to be isolated for similar reasons plus no tripcock installed if thats the case how come pic shares the track with s stock at ealing acton and on the uxbridge branch ? The signalling is fed 125hz. Ealing Broadway and Hanger Lane Junction had the track circuits changed to 125hz and the delta track circuits changed to position detectors. Uxbridge branch the vast majority of the track circuits are jointless aka JTC of the FS2500 type the others again would of had the frequency changed to 125hz
|
|
|
Post by t697 on Jan 10, 2019 19:36:55 GMT
North Ealing to South Harrow (approx) is the last 33 1/3 Hz track circuited area on LUL I think.
|
|
|
Post by MoreToJack on Jan 10, 2019 20:41:21 GMT
North Ealing to South Harrow (approx) is the last 33 1/3 Hz track circuited area on LUL I think. I believe this is correct. A procedure exists to transit modern stock (95, 96 and S) along the branch but this is not suitable for normal operations. As such any proposal would require significant sums of money to get off the ground, rendering this a non-starter. S stock do physically fit, with restriction, as already stated.
|
|
rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,225
|
Post by rincew1nd on Jan 11, 2019 12:41:26 GMT
It strikes me the other reason why not, is that Pic' train operators don't sign the S Stock and District train operators don't sign the route. One group would need training, which takes them off normal duties.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2019 19:31:14 GMT
Test Crew could do it, but whether they are authorised for passenger moves I have no idea. Anyway, it is, as said above, a non starter to use S stock.
|
|
londoner
thinking on '73 stock
Posts: 478
|
Post by londoner on Jan 11, 2019 21:57:40 GMT
I remember travelling on the route in December(?). If I remember correctly, I noticed that vegetation was cleared in some areas but not in other areas. If this is the case, why hasn't all vegetation around the track been cleared? This will at least help limit the problem caused by leaves, momentarily suspended in the wind, which settle further along the track.
|
|
Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,100
|
Post by Tom on Jan 11, 2019 22:10:48 GMT
North Ealing to South Harrow (approx) is the last 33 1/3 Hz track circuited area on LUL I think. It is indeed.
|
|
Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,100
|
Post by Tom on Jan 11, 2019 22:12:29 GMT
It strikes me the other reason why not, is that Pic' train operators don't sign the S Stock and District train operators don't sign the route. One group would need training, which takes them off normal duties. Technically that would be termed 'cross line working' which the Trade Unions do not support. Test Crew could do it, but whether they are authorised for passenger moves I have no idea. Anyway, it is, as said above, a non starter to use S stock. Test Crew can't operate passenger service trains unless they're being instructed by an Instructor Operator or if there is an Operating Official in charge of the train. Both options require additional staff resources.
|
|
|
Post by commuter on Jan 12, 2019 5:13:46 GMT
I think his point was that with a little planning, the temporary timetable could have been set up like that. For much of the time, it wasn’t even a half service to Rayners, what with other cancellations and delays. One evening, there was an hour gap, and still it was a “good” service! This is exactly my point, doing this would have triple benefits as it would leave spare stock available to replace that with flats, it would keep pic stoc away from some of the worst areas for slippery track, which the S stock handles so much better and would allow the S stock to run at line speed instead of crawling along behind picc stock running at reduced speed because of the trac condition. There shouldn’t have been any Pic trains crawling along though as there was no TSR [lower speed limit ] in place on the joint section with the Met.
|
|
|
Post by commuter on Jan 12, 2019 5:22:23 GMT
If the South Harrow line is particularly prone to leaf-fall, and the S stock can handle the problem better than the 1973 stock, would it be possible for a couple of S stock (which already operates at both ends of the route) to be borrowed for the duration? How much modification would be needed to the line to make it usable by surface stock again? It isn’t just the Rayner’s branch but also on the Heathrow Branchline [primarily Bostonmanor To Hounslow West] and also east of Arnos. In fact one of the key issues with the disaster in 2016 and the smaller issue the year before was that so much effort had been placed on the Rayners branch that the other two areas were missed. You can read the formal investigation report on TfL website.
|
|
|
Post by philthetube on Jan 12, 2019 9:16:36 GMT
This is exactly my point, doing this would have triple benefits as it would leave spare stock available to replace that with flats, it would keep pic stoc away from some of the worst areas for slippery track, which the S stock handles so much better and would allow the S stock to run at line speed instead of crawling along behind picc stock running at reduced speed because of the trac condition. There shouldn’t have been any Pic trains crawling along though as there was no TSR [lower speed limit ] in place on the joint section with the Met. If they know they are difficulty stopping the picc trainsthey will drive accordingly, similarly if the S stock drivers know that they will be able to stop the same applies. The speed limit is lower for picc than met in any case. 45/50
|
|
|
Post by t697 on Jan 12, 2019 11:48:24 GMT
The Picc train performance curve is inherently slower that the Met trains' curve running on the Uxbridge line so their attained speed capability is lower irrespective of additional leaf fall limits.
And for those proposing S stock on the South Harrow branch, as well as signalling compatibility and maybe bridge clearance, the stations would need S stock related equipment - stop mark, CSDE and OPO TTCCTV. A nearer to practicable suggestion a few years ago was to run a few D stock as a shuttle. But they've gone now.
|
|
|
Post by cudsn15 on Jan 12, 2019 21:18:08 GMT
Maybe I've been lucky but service and gaps in service do seem to have improved recently - plus they have cleaned most of the light diffusers at Manor House at last! still quite dingy in the ticket hall though.
|
|