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Post by jamesb on Apr 3, 2017 9:40:23 GMT
I came across some YouTube footage of Bank and Liverpool St in the early 1990s.
The stations both look so unobstructed and spacious. The only sign that can be seen is a way out sign. The platforms have the original painted lining. There are not cluttered signs hanging from the ceiling. There are no yellow lines. There are no electronic advertising.There are no help points. There is no WiFi, so there would not be people glued to their mobile phones.
I wonder if we have gone too much the other way over the last 25 years. We are now bombarded with clutter and information. Announcements, safety notices, directional signs which often obstruct each other, advertising, WiFi (+mobile phones), the overall space is reduced by the installation of coverings to conceal all the miles of wiring and original plastered roof, CCTV cameras pointing at our every step.
Seeing Bank and Liverpool St in the video made is seem quite refreshing.
I wonder if things could become more simplistic in the future? Going back to the original plastered ceilings, for example.
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Post by trt on Apr 3, 2017 10:02:20 GMT
They certainly need to bring back that chap whose job it was to design the signage in stations. Where to put it, what information was relevant etc. I mean, it's nice seeing the arrival times and destinations of the next two trains on all 6 platforms at Euston in one location, a thigh to ceiling DM display in the ticket hall, but at the point that information is given, there's at least 5-6 minutes walk to reach the platform, which makes that information pretty useless to the passenger. Is it there for the staff? And then there's the National Rail departure plasma screen. Tiny writing that you have to get up close to read, after the ticket barrier... do you really need to make a decision between platforms 16 and 2 at that point in your trip? No. You need to decide between 8-11 (turn left) and everything else (go straight ahead). So you don't present irrelevant information at that point, and you present it so it can be read from before the gate line so that people know which way to head once they are through. Always planning movement 8 seconds ahead, we are.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Apr 3, 2017 10:37:12 GMT
I suppose it's a 'swings and roundabouts' thing, really.
Whilst some upgrades seem to be entirely positive (such as the King's Cross underground station [although I'm sure someone will be along in a minute to disagree]), sometimes you lament the passing of the simplicity of years gone.
The slight dinginess of a lot of underground stations seemed somehow to give a feeling of timeless purposefulness.
And I remember when Victoria overground was a Railway Station, rather than what it feels to be now: a vast retail opportunity that happens to have a few trains coming and going.
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Post by Chris M on Apr 3, 2017 10:41:35 GMT
I disagree with most of that - yes the announcements are often excessive and some signage needs to be better placed so it doesn't obstruct other signs, but help points are unambiguously a Good Thing (if they are properly resourced and there is a member of staff on the other end, promptly, who can actually assist in an emergency or give information as appropriate). CCTV cameras are a very useful tool in today's station as they allow any problems to be seen and dealt with sooner, and are useful for prosecutions and/or safety learnings in the event something undesirable does happen.
I really don't understand the fuss about yellow lines, they are not intrusive and meaningfully contribute to the safety of crowded platforms - they may be unnecessary off peak at Roding Valley but essential at Bank during the peaks and it is likely cheaper to apply them everywhere than assess each platform individually. Electronic advertising is fine by me as it helps keep fares lower, and some people will be glued to their phones whether or not there is wifi.
False ceilings are not something I'm a fan of - Mile End is by far the worst - but it's not something I'm going to get too worked up about. The world has moved on since 1990.
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Post by Chris M on Apr 3, 2017 10:51:46 GMT
And I remember when Victoria overground was a Railway Station, rather than what it feels to be now: a vast retail opportunity that happens to have a few trains coming and going. Have you been to St Pancras recently? That really feels like a shopping centre with the railway treated as an inconvenience. Retail on stations is a good thing generally, but there does need to be a balance struck and the retail should be there to support the railway and fit around it not vice versa - King's Cross shows it can be done.
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Post by theblackferret on Apr 3, 2017 10:56:24 GMT
The station in the vid needed a good coat of paint & a general clean-up.
Nothing more!
The trouble with the amount of information these days is two-fold:
1) It's everywhere - you almost get to the point where you get on a Tube train & expect to see or hear the bus times from the next three stations, regardless of who's getting off there & for what purpose. Not to mention the latest gossip about Arsene Wenger's future, even if you aren't on a Piccadilly service going through Arsenal station!!
2) A considerable proportion of travellers these days have mobile phones with apps in to tell them where they need to go after passing the ticket barrier, so the signage is therefore completely wasted on them.
In respect of the retail opportunities, class411, I did have cause to be grateful to Victoria late one evening in 2013, when we went to see Wicked without eating first-brilliant thick corned beef & cucumber sandwich, which we had at Uxbridge Travelodge around 01:30 & even managed to get a cappo reheated!
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Post by Chris M on Apr 3, 2017 11:02:24 GMT
Yes there is too much information at times, but good wayfinding information on stations is essential if you want to keep people moving through the stations (you do), and it has to be accessible to as many people as possible. Requiring people to know their way around or look at apps they may or may not have on phones they may or may not have will not work. ~~~~
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 3, 2017 11:34:55 GMT
A work colleague suffered a serious hand injury whilst working in rooms off the end of the Central line platforms at Liverpool Street.
His mate used the nearest Help point to summon assistance and probably saved his hand.
I used one to summon an ambulance when a girl fell down the stairs at London Bridge and cut her head open.
Now tell me they're not needed.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 3, 2017 11:48:24 GMT
I mean, it's nice seeing the arrival times and destinations of the next two trains on all 6 platforms at Euston in one location, a thigh to ceiling DM display in the ticket hall, but at the point that information is given, there's at least 5-6 minutes walk to reach the platform, which makes that information pretty useless to the passenger. At Euston, with many (most) destinations served by two or even three widely-separated platforms, and sometimes quite long intervals between train to a particular branch from on any one platform, it can be very useful to know which platform to go to for, say an Edgware train or a Morden train. (CX branch is quicker but much less frequent)
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Post by jamesb on Apr 3, 2017 11:53:56 GMT
My personal feeling is that some things are clearly a good advancement, e.g. help points and CCTV cameras - essential in fact. But they have been 'plumbed in' using miles and miles of cables, which have been covered up by false ceilings and fittings. One sign often obstructs another sign.
The general simplicity and openness of the stations in the video seemed refreshing.
Having discrete CCTV cameras with the cables plastered over having cut into the original ceiling and walls, some emergency help points (maybe just an emergency button and small box) and a next train information board. And nice spacey painted walls and ceiling. Perfect!
Is it a good thing for our mental well being to be bombarded with information continuously? What we consider as essential isn't actually essential. Maybe we are all addicted to it - e.g. using our smartphones on the platform. Convenient - yes. Essential - no. Digital advertising - money making for TfL yes.Good for our mental well being - no? Knowing that the next Epping train arrives in 2 minutes on the platform from the ticket hall which is 2 escalators away - essential - no. Comforting by feeding our sense of control - yes.
I agree that we have to move with the times, but the railway is a railway. Not a domestic living room.
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Post by ducatisti on Apr 3, 2017 11:55:55 GMT
The information is certainly badly placed - sometimes presumably unavoidably, but the number of signs that block other signs is annoying, and there isn't a clear hierarchy - I'd say that a way out sign should not be obscured by anything else and then work from there.
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Post by Chris M on Apr 3, 2017 12:25:50 GMT
Knowing that the next Epping train arrives in 2 minutes on the platform from the ticket hall which is 2 escalators away - essential - no. Comforting by feeding our sense of control - yes. If you're at Oxford Circus trying to get to Loughton seeing that there are Central trains to Epping in 2, 6 and 10 minutes means that you can see the line is probably working well and there is no need to divert. However if you see that the next trains on that are Hainault 3 minutes, Newbury Park 10 minutes and Hainault 11 minutes (even if there is a officially a good service) but there is no shortage of northbound Victoria line trains it's probably worth going to Walthamstow and getting the bus from there. Waiting on the westbound platform at Holland Park and being informed that there are minor delays between Barking and Upminster and London Overground is partially closed "between Highbury and Islington and Shadwell, Surrey Quays, New Cross, Romford, Upminster, Crystal Palace and West Croydon" (which is approximately what I heard a couple of weekends back) is not useful. Equally not useful was arriving into Bank Station to be told "London Overground is partially suspended" with no further details. The problem is not with information, it's with poor provision of information.
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Post by trt on Apr 3, 2017 13:06:18 GMT
I mean, it's nice seeing the arrival times and destinations of the next two trains on all 6 platforms at Euston in one location, a thigh to ceiling DM display in the ticket hall, but at the point that information is given, there's at least 5-6 minutes walk to reach the platform, which makes that information pretty useless to the passenger. At Euston, with many (most) destinations served by two or even three widely-separated platforms, and sometimes quite long intervals between train to a particular branch from on any one platform, it can be very useful to know which platform to go to for, say an Edgware train or a Morden train. (CX branch is quicker but much less frequent) *IF* the interval is long, yes. During most of the day, the trains being shown on the board will have already departed by the time you reach platform. The DM board just serves to obscure part of the view of the ticket hall. But there's only one set of escalators down to the Lower Circulation Area, and, admittedly, they also have a sign there saying which trains are going where on which branch. So there is a point to having them down there.
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Post by Chris M on Apr 3, 2017 13:25:06 GMT
There is value to seeing the times and destinations of the next departures before the gateline, and at the decision point(s) between platforms, and obviously on the platforms but elsewhere the space could be better used.
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Post by roman80 on Apr 3, 2017 14:31:53 GMT
Agreed. Two that bug me every day at Westminster are as follows: 1) arriving on the westbound district line platform of an evening, if an S stock is in the platform, its side display takes an age to move between saying 'district line' and the real destination, which is more important for a line with so many branches 2) the platform display is only two lines and the second line is often polluted with slowly scrolling irrelevant service information for a line miles away so one can't tell which trains are behind the next one. The reason both are annoying is because as a Wimbledon branch traveller, I need to decide whether to wait it out at Westminster for the next Wimbledon train or get to Earls Court where if things don't go to plan the first Wimbledon service will have come from the City and not Edgware Road and hence may already be too packed to board.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 3, 2017 16:12:50 GMT
2) A considerable proportion of travellers these days have mobile phones with apps in to tell them where they need to go after passing the ticket barrier, so the signage is therefore completely wasted on them. When you join the Tube the first day is given over to a general introduction, one of the little bits of information you are told is that rather than the majority of our passengers being regular users around two thirds travel on the Tube less than seven days a year. I suspect its highly unlikely that these passengers even know that there's an app that tells them where to go let alone have it on their phone so for the majority of passengers the signage is very useful.
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 3, 2017 16:46:55 GMT
The information is certainly badly placed - sometimes presumably unavoidably, but the number of signs that block other signs is annoying, and there isn't a clear hierarchy - I'd say that a way out sign should not be obscured by anything else and then work from there. Way out signs should always be clearly visible (they are normally the only illuminated panels) and this should be respected by other installations. If necessary additional way out signs have to be installed. It should be remembered that at stations like Liverpool Street and Oxford Circus there are different exit routes according to the time of day. This does require extra signs with switchable arrows. Way out panels were added to the friezes along the platform walls after the King's Cross fire. Unfortunately a lot of the recent modernisations have been done by a management contractor and rules are not always understood or followed.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 3, 2017 17:05:23 GMT
The information is certainly badly placed - sometimes presumably unavoidably, but the number of signs that block other signs is annoying, and there isn't a clear hierarchy - I'd say that a way out sign should not be obscured by anything else and then work from there. Unfortunately a lot of the recent modernisations have been done by a management contractor and rules are not always understood or followed. Any work would have to be signed off by a senior manager who would have understood the rules and should have made the contractors aware of any problems.
Sadly LU management aren't the sharpest tools in the box
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Post by snoggle on Apr 3, 2017 17:06:59 GMT
Well what a lot of moans about modern day practices. We have moved on enormously since the 70s and 80s - thank goodness. Yes there was a certain simplicity to LU's stations but the condition of many stations was appalling and by the mid 80s bordering on the dangerous. In many respects this accumulated decay and poor management resulted in the Kings Cross fire tragedy. No one wants to relive that in terms of the organisation itself being responsible for such a scale of death and injury.
Perhaps we should just ignore the fact that tube is carrying hundreds of millions more pass jnys a year than it did 30 years ago and that the operational challenge of safely handling those people is on another scale? You simply can't cope with the numbers in some stations with signage and information designed for the 1950s. You will also always have compromises when you are trying to install a lot more systems into infrastructure build many decades ago when such assets hadn't been thought of. In new parts of stations, where there is proper space and design, then there is far less clutter which suggests to me that the basic design principles are fine. Let's see how things are on Crossrail - I expect there will be very little signage or clutter because of the sheer scale of what is being built. There also appears to have been a decision about minimalistic wayfinding provision. It will be interesting to see if that survives its first interraction with the public and whether people can find their way round even allowing for the "newness" of the experience in the initial weeks of operation. I don't agree that people with smartphones don't need wayfinding info. I think they certainly do as not everyone has free access to tube wifi and it's not exactly faultlessly reliable either.
If I have a "worry" then it is about pressure to raise commercial revenue streams overriding the operational needs of the railway. It is certainly possible to go far too far with advertising and sponsorship where key underlying information could become subsumed within a sea of advertising.
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Post by drainrat on Apr 3, 2017 17:32:29 GMT
Unfortunately a lot of the recent modernisations have been done by a management contractor and rules are not always understood or followed. Any work would have to be signed off by a senior manager who would have understood the rules and should have made the contractors aware of any problems.
Sadly LU management aren't the sharpest tools in the box
I think they're just told not to obstruct 🤔
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Post by malcolmffc on Apr 5, 2017 6:05:03 GMT
To my eyes that video is shocking - clapped out old stock and stations falling to bits. Far from "the good old days" it shows a system on its last legs and starved of investment.
Thankfully we live in more enlightened times now- having brighter, cleaner stations that don't look like a war zone encourages people to travel more on the Underground and has been a big factor in the success of the last 20 years. The tube should never be allowed to return to the state shown in that video.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Apr 5, 2017 6:16:28 GMT
To my eyes that video is shocking - clapped out old stock and stations falling to bits. Far from "the good old days" it shows a system on its last legs and starved of investment. Thankfully we live in more enlightened times now- having brighter, cleaner stations that don't look like a war zone encourages people to travel more on the Underground and has been a big factor in the success of the last 20 years. The tube should never be allowed to return to the state shown in that video. It does look a state but I suppose it depends how you define "war-zone". The ridiculous crush loading experienced nowadays is far more warlike to me........
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Post by trt on Apr 5, 2017 9:05:19 GMT
Parts of the network look even worse than that. e.g. Finsbury Park.
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Post by North End on Apr 5, 2017 10:21:17 GMT
To my eyes that video is shocking - clapped out old stock and stations falling to bits. Far from "the good old days" it shows a system on its last legs and starved of investment. Thankfully we live in more enlightened times now- having brighter, cleaner stations that don't look like a war zone encourages people to travel more on the Underground and has been a big factor in the success of the last 20 years. The tube should never be allowed to return to the state shown in that video. It does look a state but I suppose it depends how you define "war-zone". The ridiculous crush loading experienced nowadays is far more warlike to me........ Yes I'd happily take a bit of peeling paint in exchange for quiet stations and trains, as seen on some of the 1990s Video 125 productions. By comparison today can be a pretty intolerable experience, no doubt some younger people have never experienced the system when travel was a more civilised experience- for example one could actually board a train without someone trying to barge in front of you. No doubt things will only get worse and worse as population grows. To be fair, I seem to recall Bank and Liverpool Street were amongst the very worst of the stations at the time- most were nothing like as decrepit as seen. Likewise I don't see anything wrong with the state of the 62 stock in the video - at that point it was not even 30 years old. Bear in mind today's Bakerloo Line trains are now approaching 45 years, and even the 92 stock is now approaching 25 years. I bet some of the finishes installed under the PPP won't last that long either, many places are already experiencing issues.
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Post by class411 on Apr 5, 2017 10:37:14 GMT
It does look a state but I suppose it depends how you define "war-zone". The ridiculous crush loading experienced nowadays is far more warlike to me........ Yes I'd happily take a bit of peeling paint in exchange for quiet stations and trains, as seen on some of the 1990s Video 125 productions. By comparison today can be a pretty intolerable experience, no doubt some younger people have never experienced the system when travel was a more civilised experience- for example one could actually board a train without someone trying to barge in front of you. No doubt things will only get worse and worse as population grows. I sometimes wonder if there are members of this site who only ever use the busiest sections of the underground in the rush hour. I would say that, despite some rush hour travel, the vast majority of my underground use is on trains that are not fully loaded* - i.e. they have free seats, often plenty of free seats. From my personal experience, a lot of the journeys I make now have the same loading density as those I used to make as a very young child in the 50's. * I realise that this is not the official definition of 'fully loaded', as trains are designed and intended to accommodate standing passengers
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Post by North End on Apr 5, 2017 10:53:58 GMT
Yes I'd happily take a bit of peeling paint in exchange for quiet stations and trains, as seen on some of the 1990s Video 125 productions. By comparison today can be a pretty intolerable experience, no doubt some younger people have never experienced the system when travel was a more civilised experience- for example one could actually board a train without someone trying to barge in front of you. No doubt things will only get worse and worse as population grows. I sometimes wonder if there are members of this site who only ever use the busiest sections of the underground in the rush hour. I would say that, despite some rush hour travel, the vast majority of my underground use is on trains that are not fully loaded* - i.e. they have free seats, often plenty of free seats. From my personal experience, a lot of the journeys I make now have the same loading density as those I used to make as a very young child in the 50's. * I realise that this is not the official definition of 'fully loaded', as trains are designed and intended to accommodate standing passengers Off-peak is definitely a lot busier now than even a decade ago, and I believe official data backs this up. Yesterday I took an H&C train to Hammersmith which was standing all the way to Hammersmith at 1000, then the District to Richmond was no better. Coming back from Kew Gardens at 1900 the (D stock) train was standing from Gunnersbury, and crush loaded from Mile End. Even traditionally quiet places like the Bank branch are now busy at weekends, despite frequency enhancements since the 1980s and 90s. Stations can't cope too, some places like Euston are hurrendous at certain times. I think it doesn't help that a lot of people seem a lot more rude nowadays, maybe I'm getting older but I definitely see a lot more people prepared to push in front of others when boarding trains. Many people are also utterly inconsiderate when navigating round stations, for example stopping dead in a passageway because their social media has just gone ping.
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Post by class411 on Apr 5, 2017 13:27:18 GMT
Off-peak is definitely a lot busier now than even a decade ago, and I believe official data backs this up. Yesterday I took an H&C train to Hammersmith which was standing all the way to Hammersmith at 1000, then the District to Richmond was no better. Coming back from Kew Gardens at 1900 the (D stock) train was standing from Gunnersbury, and crush loaded from Mile End. I think you were very unlucky with your trip into Hammersmith and to Richmond. They are both journeys I make many times a year and I rarely have any trouble, although I dare say that, generally, you are correct in saying that loadings have increased over the years. It's just that in my experience of general, day-time, off-peak travel on the underground, I find that I'm frequently in carriages with less than 25% seat occupancy. (obviously there are some sections were this rarely applies: Victoria and Central line zone 1 being obvious examples). One thing I have noticed about the Kew to Hammersmith leg is that the evening rush hour seems to have shifted later and extended.
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 5, 2017 18:29:53 GMT
One thing I have noticed about the Kew to Hammersmith leg is that the evening rush hour seems to have shifted later and extended. The British are generally working longer and later, add this to an increase in the number of places (shops, bars and the like) open in the evening and it goes some way towards explaining your observation.
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Post by roman80 on Apr 5, 2017 19:10:27 GMT
Interesting re changing travel patterns and their reasons. Having used the westbound district line for twenty years of an evening, I note the following: from Central London (Westminster or Embankment) nine times out of ten one ends up standing until Parsons Green or Putney Bridge. Once upon a time Victoria saw a net exit of passengers, now its flat or an add. Also, other than people swapping to the Piccadilly, no one alights at South Kensington or Gloucester Road (commuters priced out of the area?) and many more people get on Wimbledon branch trains at Earls Court than get off to change trains, lines or exit the station. Meanwhile, circle line trains leaving Westminster are much more lightly loaded than in the past, especially outside the summer tourist season.
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Post by countryman on Apr 5, 2017 21:06:23 GMT
Interesting re changing travel patterns and their reasons. Having used the westbound district line for twenty years of an evening, I note the following: from Central London (Westminster or Embankment) nine times out of ten one ends up standing until Parsons Green or Putney Bridge. Once upon a time Victoria saw a net exit of passengers, now its flat or an add. Also, other than people swapping to the Piccadilly, no one alights at South Kensington or Gloucester Road (commuters priced out of the area?) and many more people get on Wimbledon branch trains at Earls Court than get on. Meanwhile, circle line trains leaving Westminster are much more lightly loaded than in the past, especially outside the summer tourist season. Could you clarify what you mean about Wimbledon trains at Earl's Court.
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