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Post by The Tram Man on Nov 9, 2014 15:40:36 GMT
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Post by domh245 on Nov 9, 2014 15:52:40 GMT
I suspect it will probably be something to do with the fact that the headlights weren't necessarily intended for illumination, but more for identification and alerting trackside peoples to the presence of the train, certainly that is what they do on NR trains. I guess back in the early days, it would have been similar, considering that the "big" trains of the time were also not fitted with high-intensity lights. Similarly with the one sided lights, it would again be for identification rather than illumination. Indeed, to this day, many tube stocks still don't have very illuminating lights, even though from 67TS on they were fitted with the high intensity lights. This is made clear from the Drivers Eyes Views videos, where the filming crew will bring extra lights, so that you can see things in the tunnels!
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Nov 9, 2014 17:30:20 GMT
Early headlamps only existed to mark the head of a train, not illumination. Two oil lamps on the front of an A4 at full chat on the East Coast wouldn't really give much of a clue as to the state of the line immediately ahead. Modern lamps are brighter both so that they can be seen better (and I understand the 'triangulation' light above the cab is to distinguish them from road vehicles*) and to illuminate the reflective trackside signs.
I guess it's mainly a case of the technology available at the time, early road vehicles were similarly scantily equipped.
*From my parents house we get a good view of several miles of the Aire Valley line. At one point trains to Leeds head directly towards the house (several miles away across the valley) for half a mile or so, and with my dad we would follow the trains down the valley, through the woods and then hear them passing over the River Aire. At which point the following train would appear into view in the distance. We could tell which were the Morecambe trains because they were usually Pacers <<spit>> and so bounced around a lot heading towards us; one night we thought one was particularly poorly as it was going very slow - until the ex-Bradford HST hove into view and overtook the Signalman's car driving home at the end of his shift! Unfortunately now the splitting distant has gone and the trees have grown up preventing the colour-light replacements being seen, except when the feather on the junction is lit.
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Post by The Tram Man on Nov 9, 2014 17:38:44 GMT
So, basically, after reading this it turns out that my understanding of headlights on british trains are all wrong.
Although, to be fair, that does explain why the lights i've seen on steam locos have been so small.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Nov 9, 2014 17:51:11 GMT
What was your previous understanding, that they were to provide vision to the driver? <<Edit: the current standard for the "big railway" is here.>>
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Post by The Tram Man on Nov 9, 2014 18:50:25 GMT
As that's how it is here, that's what i assumed it was like in the UK aswell.
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metman
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Post by metman on Nov 9, 2014 21:33:35 GMT
The marker lights also were arranged to denote the route of the train which was useful for signalmen et al. Marker lights stopped being used finally in the 1970s with the R and CO/CP stock ceasing to use them.
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Post by The Tram Man on Nov 9, 2014 23:23:20 GMT
The marker lights also were arranged to denote the route of the train which was useful for signalmen et al. That much i knew, but i thought they served to light up the tunnels aswell.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 10, 2014 10:47:56 GMT
. Similarly with the one sided lights, it would again be for identification rather than illumination. The headlights being both on one side on the A stock for example was because they were where the original headcode group were. Even on modern trains, the high-intensity marker lights are more about being seen than seeing - and the need for them became greater as trains became both faster and quieter. It would be rare that, even within the range of the huge floodlights that adorned the American locomotives we see in Westerns, that a driver could do anything to avoid a collision with something that came into sight. Even in the Victorian era, stopping distances of trains were far further than line-of-sight: they may have only been half as fast as modern trains, but the brakes were far inferior too. By the time an obstruction is in sight, you are far too late to avoid hitting it: and you can't swerve. What matters above all is that signals are brightly lit - these effectively let you see the state of the track well beyond the range of vision, even round corners and through tunnels. Bright headlights might even be a distraction to an oncoming driver on an adjcaent track,, making it harder to spot the signals applying to his own track.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 10, 2014 12:35:06 GMT
The marker lights also were arranged to denote the route of the train which was useful for signalmen et al. Marker lights stopped being used finally in the 1970s with the R and CO/CP stock ceasing to use them. Marker lights on CO/CP Stock involved sliders. The bulbs were hidden from view behind the panelling even when the apertures were uncovered unlike R Stock which had switchable bulbs immediately behind the apertures. Very little light could be projected forward on CO/CP Stock whereas R Stock, depending on the destination marker code displayed, could project light a little further. D Stock project very little forward light despite having twin halogen bulbs.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Nov 10, 2014 18:11:26 GMT
By the time an obstruction is in sight, you are far too late to avoid hitting it: and you can't swerve. . Sir Richard Branson, of Virgin Trains, in response to the Grayrigg incident of 2007 disagreed, infamously saying "Our driver could have run from his seat and dashed to the next carriage, where he might well have been safe, instead, he tried to steer the train to safety. He ended up quite badly injured". www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-438286/Train-crash-It-sabotage.html (Daily Nazi link; apologies) Incidentally, on the subject of illumination, I've just bought 10x200W GLS lightbulbs! The smell of roasting bakelite from the bulb holders is rather strong.
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Post by jacko1 on Nov 15, 2014 17:29:04 GMT
By the time an obstruction is in sight, you are far too late to avoid hitting it: and you can't swerve. . Sir Richard Branson, of Virgin Trains, in response to the Grayrigg incident of 2007 disagreed, infamously saying "Our driver could have run from his seat and dashed to the next carriage, where he might well have been safe, instead, he tried to steer the train to safety. He ended up quite badly injured". www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-438286/Train-crash-It-sabotage.html (Daily Nazi link; apologies) Incidentally, on the subject of illumination, I've just bought 10x200W GLS lightbulbs! The smell of roasting bakelite from the bulb holders is rather strong. im sory,as much as I admire mr branson,he has not got a clue about the sharp end. even with the brightest headlight,a train running at 125mph would not illuminate a obstruction quick enough and in time for a driver to react quick enough .plus as said before,bright headlights dazzle oncoming trains.we used to unoficialy turn our headlights off when we approached another train at night and just pass it with yard lights. prob wont get away with it nowdays as the train recorder would record it,and you would get a please explain fronm your dvr manager!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 14:42:19 GMT
Marker lights on CO/CP Stock involved sliders. The bulbs were hidden from view behind the panelling even when the apertures were uncovered unlike R Stock which had switchable bulbs immediately behind the apertures. Very little light could be projected forward on CO/CP Stock whereas R Stock, depending on the destination marker code displayed, could project light a little further. D Stock project very little forward light despite having twin halogen bulbs. Some examples with Market lights lit R stock click hereCO/CP stock click here
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 7:52:01 GMT
Sir Richard Branson, of Virgin Trains, in response to the Grayrigg incident of 2007 disagreed, infamously saying "Our driver could have run from his seat and dashed to the next carriage, where he might well have been safe, instead, he tried to steer the train to safety. He ended up quite badly injured". www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-438286/Train-crash-It-sabotage.html (Daily Nazi link; apologies) Incidentally, on the subject of illumination, I've just bought 10x200W GLS lightbulbs! The smell of roasting bakelite from the bulb holders is rather strong. im sory,as much as I admire mr branson,he has not got a clue about the sharp end. ... I think his ludicrous comment about steering makes that abundantly clear
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Nov 18, 2014 23:33:30 GMT
When I worked the Portsmouth line regularly, I had a couple of friends from Gothenberg Tramway Museum riding in the cab with me one evening. As it got darker, they asked when I was going to switch the headlights on (8CEP)..I only had route numbers to light the way!
Tony asked "what do you do if there's something on the line?" "Hit it" was my reply, "it shouldn't be there". He explained they had headlights in Sweden. So I asked the same question, he gave the same answer! Harumph.
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Post by brigham on Nov 19, 2014 10:46:51 GMT
I've always had a lot of respect for Branson. Didn't realise he was a tit!
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Nov 19, 2014 18:35:28 GMT
I've always had a lot of respect for Branson. Didn't realise he was a tit! Is he a red tit or a blue tit ?
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Post by John Tuthill on Nov 19, 2014 19:22:22 GMT
I've always had a lot of respect for Branson. Didn't realise he was a tit! Is he a red tit or a blue tit ? No-a great tit!
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Post by bassmike on Nov 20, 2014 12:00:00 GMT
Agreed
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Nov 20, 2014 13:24:47 GMT
Can we get back to headlights please?
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neilw
now that's what I call a garden railway
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Post by neilw on Dec 20, 2014 11:26:20 GMT
they were not called headlights, but marker lights and were not designed to light the route ahead, they were to mark the front of the train. On the 56/59/62TS, the prototypes had lights to code the destination, these were dropped on the production models which featured just two lights side by side on the opposite side to the driver (in case one bulb blew the train could remain in service until a car examiner fixed the problem). The bulbs were only 50W each. No need for illumination of the tunnel, and better visibility of signals in the dark.
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Post by superteacher on Dec 20, 2014 11:42:52 GMT
It was only the 1956 stock that had the 5 marker lights on delivery. All of the 59 / 62 stock were delivered with only 2 lights.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 20, 2014 12:03:20 GMT
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Post by Dstock7080 on Dec 20, 2014 14:33:20 GMT
it seems surface stock used a six-light pattern, but tube stock used five Although built with 6 aperture boxes O/P Stock had the tail-light in the top right position and there were no codes that used it although provided as a white light on R Stock.
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Post by stuartroy on Dec 20, 2014 22:46:24 GMT
Does anyone know of a list of the marker light codes?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Dec 20, 2014 22:52:57 GMT
Does anyone know of a list of the marker light codes? One of the better listings: marker light codes
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Post by stuartroy on Dec 21, 2014 8:34:32 GMT
Thank you! Sadly fascinated by such things.
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