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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2014 17:35:37 GMT
I learned from reading around that the signalling sequence Annn A, Annn B, etc. (e.g. A919 A, A919 B, A919 C) can refer to multi home signals. As I understand it, multi home signals do not have to be automatic, they can be semi-auto as well, e.g. FF1 A, FF1 B, FF1 C. Multi home signalling is comprehensively explained over here. My understanding of it is that multi-home signalling allows a train to approach a station as the train ahead pulls out. This is achieved by a complex, finely tuned overlapping of the blocks, with the first block ending some way down the platform, the second block (which begins within the first block) ending further down the platform, the third block (which begins with the first and second blocks) ending at the overlap of the starter. (N.B. there may be more than three home signals, or fewer than three). As a train pulls away from a station, it quickly clears the block protected by the outer home signal. The length and positioning of this block will have been calculated to ensure that the appropriate overlaps are present. When the departing train clears the block protected by the outer home signal, it obviously clears, allowing the next train to approach the station. The departing train will then clear the block protected by the next home signal and that signal will clear, allowing the approaching train to draw closer to the station. The process continues until the departing train has cleared the block protected by the inner home signal and the next train can enter the station. I've started to think that there may be a few gaps in my understanding and/or that the Annn A, Annn B, etc. sequence doesn't always apply to multi home signalling. The reason for this is that firstly it looks to me like on some occasions (maybe I'm simply wrong about this) that the signals start quite a long way from the platform and are quite far apart. I would think that the distance between the first and last home signal wouldn't be much more than the length of a train and yet it doesn't always seem that they are so close together. The second is that there is obvious complexity introduced at numerous locations, e.g. the former arrangement at Plaistow westbound (now revised, I believe) which went A912 A, A912 B, FC1, or the arrangement at Dagenham East which goes FG23 A, FG23 B (which actually has a junction indicator and controls the crossover leading to the bay road), FG22. Finally, the simsig website describes a totally different arrangement: Which is more like speed control signalling. So, some of you may be wondering where the question is in all of this. Well, I suppose I just want to know if my summary of multi home signalling is accurate - or is there more to it? Secondly, is this all that Annn A, Annn B, etc. sequence denotes, or is it used for other arrangements? Finally, is the simsig website's description accurate?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2014 19:12:48 GMT
The District orignally went up to Axxxh in the middle with lots of speed inductors. Multi home signals just allow more trains in the area to try and keep moving by allowing trains to get closer. On the approch to Bow Road they go upto Axxxd on the W/B.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Oct 9, 2014 9:23:52 GMT
I learned from reading around that the signalling sequence Annn A, Annn B, etc. (e.g. A919 A, A919 B, A919 C) can refer to multi home signals. As I understand it, multi home signals do not have to be automatic, they can be semi-auto as well, e.g. FF1 A, FF1 B, FF1 C. Multi home signalling is comprehensively explained over here. My understanding of it is that multi-home signalling allows a train to approach a station as the train ahead pulls out. This is achieved by a complex, finely tuned overlapping of the blocks, with the first block ending some way down the platform, the second block (which begins within the first block) ending further down the platform, the third block (which begins with the first and second blocks) ending at the overlap of the starter. (N.B. there may be more than three home signals, or fewer than three). As a train pulls away from a station, it quickly clears the block protected by the outer home signal. The length and positioning of this block will have been calculated to ensure that the appropriate overlaps are present. When the departing train clears the block protected by the outer home signal, it obviously clears, allowing the next train to approach the station. The departing train will then clear the block protected by the next home signal and that signal will clear, allowing the approaching train to draw closer to the station. The process continues until the departing train has cleared the block protected by the inner home signal and the next train can enter the station. I've started to think that there may be a few gaps in my understanding and/or that the Annn A, Annn B, etc. sequence doesn't always apply to multi home signalling. The reason for this is that firstly it looks to me like on some occasions (maybe I'm simply wrong about this) that the signals start quite a long way from the platform and are quite far apart. I would think that the distance between the first and last home signal wouldn't be much more than the length of a train and yet it doesn't always seem that they are so close together. The second is that there is obvious complexity introduced at numerous locations, e.g. the former arrangement at Plaistow westbound (now revised, I believe) which went A912 A, A912 B, FC1, or the arrangement at Dagenham East which goes FG23 A, FG23 B (which actually has a junction indicator and controls the crossover leading to the bay road), FG22. Finally, the simsig website describes a totally different arrangement: Which is more like speed control signalling. So, some of you may be wondering where the question is in all of this. Well, I suppose I just want to know if my summary of multi home signalling is accurate - or is there more to it? Secondly, is this all that Annn A, Annn B, etc. sequence denotes, or is it used for other arrangements? Finally, is the simsig website's description accurate? A lot depends on when a specific layout was installed, as well as local site circumstances. A typical multi-home layout from the Northern Line - Colliers Wood southbound. S.707A, S.707B, S.707C. Quite simply, the platform area is divided into 3x track circuits, coincidently numbered 707A to C. Once the train clears each track circuit in turn, the three home signals will clear in turn. Generally you would not come to a stand at the B and C signals, unless the train in front had a problem or was itself running up to a red signal ahead. Sometimes you can get a layout with one or more semi-automatic signals in the sequence, or the whole sequence might be semi. An example of the former would be Kennington s/b CX - BX.51A, FNX.51B, B2. Here the last signal is at braking distance from the facing points just south of Kennington platform, and may thus remain at danger for a variety of reasons. An example of the former is Colindale s/b - AC.12A, AC.12B, AC.12C. On the Northern Line the highest number of conventional multi-homes was 4 - at South Wimbledon n/b which ran up to A.720D. Other places with many homes that I can think of - Mansion House e/b, King's Cross inner rail, Queen's Park n/b (sort of!), Liverpool Street (Central Line) - now long history, Baker Street sb Jubilee. How many home signals depends on the traffic requirements at the time of installation. Northern Line tended to have either 2 or 3. Picc Line tends to have 3 in the centre, 2 in the open sections. Bakerloo often has just one home signal. Anything over 3 is generally the exception nowadays, although in the past this was more common. Back on the Northern Line, there were also two stations with speed-controlled signalling - Oval and Waterloo n/b. Here the sequence ran up to E, the first two signals would clear subject to speed control. A similar arrangement existed at Brent Cross n/b, but here the first signal was A.4160 and the homes were A.416A to C, although they basically worked the same at the other two locations. In all cases, if *any* of the homes were unable to clear, the speed control signal(s) would remain at danger with speed control applicable. Lastly, from the 1980s onwards use of suffix letters went out of fashion, so on sections like the central part of the District Line, the Uxbridge branch, the entire Bakerloo Line, parts of the Jubilee, and the East London Line, multi homes were each numbered with their own number. So what would have been, for example, A.666A, B & C, would become A.666, A.668 and A.670. I'm not entirely clear why this change was felt necessary. You also get suffix letters for semi-automatic signals where more than route is controlled by the same lever. So for example, at Edgware the starter from Platform 3 was AE.31B, with a shunt signal beneath numbered AE.31A. Meanwhile, in High Barnet signals the outlet signals were numbered NU.28A to H. Does anywhere nowadays reach H? It's also worth noting that sites converted to programme machines tended to get semi-automatic signals grouped together with suffix letters, which hitherto had separate numbers. Acton Town in particular springs to mind. I presume this was to simplify arrangements for the benefit of the programme machine circuits. Hope that's useful.
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Post by Harsig on Oct 9, 2014 10:19:38 GMT
On the Northern Line the highest number of conventional multi-homes was 4 - at South Wimbledon n/b which ran up to A.720D. Other places with many homes that I can think of - Mansion House e/b, King's Cross inner rail, Queen's Park n/b (sort of!), Liverpool Street (Central Line) - now long history, Baker Street sb Jubilee. It's worth pointing out that in some instances the sequence is extended because of the need for the full speed overlap on the outermost home signal to terminate some distance short of the platform. Take for example Kings Cross Inner Rail, which has five signals (OJ14 A to OJ14 E/19 B), and these also protect movements made over the crossover east of the station. Thus the overlap on signal OJ14 A extends only as far as signal OJ14 D which is immediately before the fouling point of the crossover. Another example is Wembley Park Southbound Local (MG4 A to MG4 D/5 B) where a double overlap has to be accommodated between the outermost home signal and the platform. One overlap is for the outermost home signal and the other is for the fixed red light at the north end of platform 5, which is required for trains signalled into the platform from the depot. I would expect in all such instances that all the home signals concerned would be semi-automatic signals. Finally, the simsig website describes a totally different arrangement: Which is more like speed control signalling. Personally I think the Simsig description is completely inaccurate. I happen to have the strip prints for the section of line that they have quoted as an example and although my copy is fifteen years old I don't believe things have changed that much. From the prints it is clear that signals A788 A and A788 B are controlled solely by track circuits, and the aspect of JJX790 has no bearing on what aspect they display.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2014 13:04:05 GMT
Extremely And thanks very much Harsig - omniscient as ever
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2014 17:30:32 GMT
JJX790 is also controlled purely by track circuits as its a Automatic not a Controlled signal
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Oct 14, 2014 20:11:14 GMT
Both the Simsig explanation and that from Harsig could be true, depending on the site concerned. In the case of Moor Park I'll go with Harsig.
In the past suffix letters were used so that in the event of a signal being added or removed, it didn't interfere too much with the numbering scheme. For example if you had two home signals (say, for arguments sake, A466A and A466B, if an additional home signal was needed you could just allocate the C suffix.
In later years when the use of suffix letters died out, in the mid 1980s, sufficient gaps were left in the numbering sequence to allow for any additions late on, so you would get A466 and A468 as the home signals and then A474 (for example) as the starter, allowing for the addition of A472 at a later date.
Additionally, with controlled signals if you needed one to protect, say, a crossover, and one to protect a platform, they would generally be given suffix letters as it would be illogical to not want to clear both at the same time - hence the Kings Cross example. At Kings Cross of course additional signals are needed to meet the headway requirement, so they gained five homes. The last one has two numbers as it is situated between the crossover and the platform, and can be worked by either the lever for the IR Home signals (14) or the shunt signal from the OR to IR (19).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 17:36:32 GMT
Very informative, thank you
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