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Post by snoggle on May 17, 2015 0:30:28 GMT
From what I understood, the six trains per hour was the initial overall off-peak provision, with twelve trains per hour through the central core at peak, and maybe two trains per hour from Abelio running the slow route to Liverpool Street. Frankly, I am very annoyed that any slow trains will be allowed to Liverpool Street. They should completely clear that for West Anglia route, compensating with a requirement for Abelio to have all fast trains stop at Stratford to provide interchange. The six trains per hour from Shenfield to Liverpool Street should provide six new trains per hour from West Anglia mainline to Liverpool Street via Stratford. Hopefully that is what they do. I am unclear why you believe so strongly that commuters from the GE Line should be deprived of capacity in peak times so that West Anglia passengers supposedly benefit. Surely there is a fundamental problem that the GE lines use the eastern half of Liverpool St while West Anglia use the western half. AIUI there is extremely limited capacity at the throat to get trains across from the West Anglia lines to platforms 9 and 10 never mind further across. Think of the overall impact on track capacity if you tried to thread West Anglia trains across the approach tracks to somehow utilise the GE platforms. The same applies if you were to try to reroute via Stratford with so many crossings on the flat. Clearly you can get across there but there would be an impact on track capacity overall to the detriment of everyone trying to travel into Liverpool Street. If Network Rail ever do construct their proposed flyover for West Anglia line trains at Stratford then there may be a way to pass some trains that way. However the NR Connectivity proposals show that there is great pressure to add more services on nearly route to get them into Liverpool Street and yet there's no way to expand the number of platforms there nor have NR said they want to do this. This then gets to another issue which is more about TOC costs than NR ones - to shortern turnrounds do you have to step crews back so that platform occupany time is minimised? This assumes, of course, that you can trains through the throat faster than at present and that you can people on and off trains faster too. Given the platforms can jam solid with people alighting from peak trains I don't see how that's practical as no one will be able to board departing trains if you have very short turnrounds. I don't even see CR2 being of much help because its aspirations in the Lea Valley are very limited and don't really envisage syphoning off medium to long distance commuters. It's much more about coping with housing expansion in the Lower Lea Valley / Enfield Lock areas. If there was more desire to pull off commuters on inner area stopping services to free up paths on existing lines then I'd have expected to see additional stations on CR2 at places like Stoke Newington or Clapton but there clearly isn't such a desire so we retain the ongoing conflict between threading more longer distance commuters inbetween slow stopping services serving the mass of Inner London. Doesn't look like much of a solution to me.
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Post by sawb on May 17, 2015 9:01:23 GMT
Agree about Stansted Express services being rather generous for the numbers at present. As for permanent routing of West Anglia services via Stratford, I hope this never happens, as as others have stated it will cause more problems than it solves. The only way to work this and implement Norwich90 and Crossrail would be to have all other services drastically cut, and that's not going to go down well with the people who use the services that would have to be cut.
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Post by stapler on May 17, 2015 9:21:16 GMT
<<And then "fast" to Maryland and then "fast" from Maryland to Forest Gate?>> My point is that since Coborn Rd and half Bethnal Green were closed post WW2, all trains from Stratford to LV are "fast", no matter what they were east of Stratford.
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Post by snoggle on May 17, 2015 10:57:02 GMT
Agree about Stansted Express services being rather generous for the numbers at present. As for permanent routing of West Anglia services via Stratford, I hope this never happens, as as others have stated it will cause more problems than it solves. The only way to work this and implement Norwich90 and Crossrail would be to have all other services drastically cut, and that's not going to go down well with the people who use the services that would have to be cut. Not sure that's really true in terms of cuts being needed. There must be scope to raise running speeds, add loops to allow fast trains to overtake semi fasts / stoppers and to renew signalling systems and track layouts to raise capacity. If freight can be moved away from using the NLL then that would remove conflicting moves at key locations within Greater London thus raising capacity albeit more at off peak times than the peak. As I said above the other major challenge is the contribution a TOC could make with slicker turnrounds, better station management etc. This is what LU does but it can take the overview and balance between capital investment and staff processes. Not so easy to achieve this with the main line railway set up because no one is in overall charge. Japan shows us that you can run very long, high capacity and high frequency services into terminal stations but you need relentless attention to detail and investment to maximise reliability and capacity. I don't yet see that mindset in the UK even though demand levels are such that we should be thinking in the same way.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 17, 2015 13:48:05 GMT
I am unclear why you believe so strongly that commuters from the GE Line should be deprived of capacity in peak times so that West Anglia passengers supposedly benefit. There are two new tracks currently under construction between Stratford and Liverpool Street (and points west!), for the exclusive use of the GEML local services. Some of the extra capacity this creates on the existing surface lines between Liv St and Bethnal, if not Stratford, is needed for expansion of GEML services, but West Anglia should not be left out.
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Post by ashlar on May 17, 2015 14:41:16 GMT
From what I hear, LO paintwork is starting to appear at a number of stations already, as are ticket barriers.
Enfield Town in particular has been getting a lot of attention. I wonder if this will be the "reveal" station? It makes sense.
Can't wait to see "Turkey Street" on a roundel!
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Post by crusty54 on May 17, 2015 15:50:39 GMT
From what I hear, LO paintwork is starting to appear at a number of stations already, as are ticket barriers. Enfield Town in particular has been getting a lot of attention. I wonder if this will be the "reveal" station? It makes sense. Can't wait to see "Turkey Street" on a roundel! Tipped Enfield Town as a reveal station on 16th March, i.e. several pages ago
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Post by jukes on May 17, 2015 15:55:45 GMT
Yes in all probability Enfield Town will be a reveal station. Its good (outer-London) politics for our M(P)ayor!
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Post by pridley on May 17, 2015 17:43:27 GMT
I am unclear why you believe so strongly that commuters from the GE Line should be deprived of capacity in peak times so that West Anglia passengers supposedly benefit. Because with an interchange with Crossrail (Romford, Ilford?), they get 12 stopping trains per hour and can focus on long distance trains instead. Remember that West Anglia retains a rural level of service of just two trains per hour until STAR and Crossrail 2 services commence. So, if Crossrail does not release capacity for West Anglia, you could have 22 stopping trains per hour on East Anglia vs 2 per hour for many West Anglia routes. I personally would balance capacity between the two lines until Crossrail 2 allows for parity between the two lines.
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Post by pridley on May 17, 2015 17:48:01 GMT
I am unclear why you believe so strongly that commuters from the GE Line should be deprived of capacity in peak times so that West Anglia passengers supposedly benefit. There are two new tracks currently under construction between Stratford and Liverpool Street (and points west!), for the exclusive use of the GEML local services. Some of the extra capacity this creates on the existing surface lines between Liv St and Bethnal, if not Stratford, is needed for expansion of GEML services, but West Anglia should not be left out. Snoggle, do you have a link for information about these two lines? Do they manage to squeeze extra capacity through the throat of Liverpool Street Station? This would be incredible for West Anglia, because at present, the lack of capacity at Bethnal Green forces all West Anglia express trains onto the West Anglia slow tracks that run to Enfield Town / Cheshunt, just before Bethnal Green Station. Obviously stage 2, if that can be achieved, is more platforms at Liverpool Street. I am convinced that once London Bridge is complete, there will be a move towards work at Liverpool Street Station. There is a clear momentum and revenue stream being employed and I cannot see them slowing down and just stopping these major projects after 2018.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 17, 2015 17:59:47 GMT
There are two new tracks currently under construction between Stratford and Liverpool Street (and points west!), for the exclusive use of the GEML local services. do you have a link for information about these two lines? Hardly a secret. linkie here.
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Post by pridley on May 17, 2015 19:17:42 GMT
do you have a link for information about these two lines? Hardly a secret. linkie here. Oh, I was rather hoping you were saying that two tracks west of Stratford in addition to those going in the Crossrail tunnel were being built, heading into Liverpool Street Station. I guess you were being tongue in cheek!
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 17, 2015 21:15:48 GMT
Oh, I was rather hoping you were saying that two tracks west of Stratford in addition to those going in the Crossrail tunnel were being built, heading into Liverpool Street Station. I guess you were being tongue in cheek! Sorry to disappoint you. Nevertheless, it is true that capacity on the approaches to Liverpool Street main line will be released by Crossrail. How that capacity is to be used remains to be seen, but I would be surprised if the GEML locals will be the only beneficiary.
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Post by snoggle on May 17, 2015 23:00:33 GMT
I am unclear why you believe so strongly that commuters from the GE Line should be deprived of capacity in peak times so that West Anglia passengers supposedly benefit. Because with an interchange with Crossrail (Romford, Ilford?), they get 12 stopping trains per hour and can focus on long distance trains instead. Remember that West Anglia retains a rural level of service of just two trains per hour until STAR and Crossrail 2 services commence. So, if Crossrail does not release capacity for West Anglia, you could have 22 stopping trains per hour on East Anglia vs 2 per hour for many West Anglia routes. I personally would balance capacity between the two lines until Crossrail 2 allows for parity between the two lines. While it's clear that frequencies can be relatively poor on parts of West Anglia they can't be improved just because CR1 arrives. It does nothing to add capacity in the Lea Valley as you must know. The fact that money's being spent on the GE route rather than West Anglia is just where we are at now. We can't suddenly spend billions on West Anglia just to "level" things up. The GEML does have the massive advantage of 4 tracks all the way to Shenfield which is why there's so much more capacity. Sorry if that sounds like an "egg sucking" statement - it's not meant to be. The only way you get some improvement is four tracking north of Clapton plus much more capacity through Cheshunt and Broxborne to potentially allow more locals to run up from Edmonton and then turn back. Even with 4 tracks you end up with other decisions about what on earth goes to Stratford and what you do there to turn round the trains. They can't run on to Liverpool Street unless you remove the conflicting movements which brings us back to a flyover which is just a glint in Network Rail's eyes. Network Rail aren't confident that platform 11 and 12 can handle many more tph because of the need to also handle ECS from Temple Mills to Liv St. Even the STAR scheme is likely to be done on a bare minimum basis to keep within budgets - assuming NR can build it within the budget. I'm not holding my breath about that if we look at the ludicrous cost escalation at Lea Bridge Station and decision to split the work into two because of objections from the Freight companies about a potential loss of capacity and a lack of clarity about STAR's signalling changes. It would just be nice to get to a reasonable statement of intent about improving West Anglia. At the moment there's nothing for anyone to plan round - it's just a collection of possibilities.
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Post by spsmiler on May 18, 2015 0:17:15 GMT
Quite agree that all GEML services should stop at Stratford, which is now the centre of the universe. There was, of course, a flyunder provided at Stratford in the late 40s, for the LNE Loughton and Epping trains, which became part of the Central Line. IMO there is a good case for confining the Central Line to the Loop and 4-tracking to Leytonstone to allow the Epping Line to become NR again. The govt LOIS study some ten years ago mooted an Ongar-Chelmsford extension to serve new development in the mid-Essex countryside and relieve the GEML. Now, there's a thought.... A flyunder at Stratford in the 1940's? Thats new information for me! I'd be curious to know this was installed, when the Central Line was poised to take over the Epping (etc.,) and Fairlop loop services. The four tracking was likely planned as part of CrossRaill 2. However now the CR2 trains are being diverted elsewhere. As an aside, the Leytonstone end of the route already has three tracks and if the car park was removed a fourth could be fitted in. -------------------------------------------- re: services on the GEML local services to Gidea Park and Shenfield, I often see homeward passengers unable to board trains at Stratford's platform 8. But the real issue is not the numbers of people travelling - its the timetable. There are too few trains. Below is a comparison of train services in 2014 and 1980. In 1980 there were 22 trains which left Liverpool Street between 17:00 / 5pm and 18:02 /6.02pm In 2014 the same time frame saw there being just 16 trains. It is madness that there are six (6) fewer trains - and no wonder that passengers travel in "sardine in tin can" and "cattle wagon" class. Liv St Stratford Stopping Ilford 7Kings Goodmayes Dstn pattern 2014 17:00 17:07 SLOW 17:16 N N G 17:07 17:14 FAST 17:20 Y Y S 17:10 17:17 SLOW 17:26 N N G 17:17 17:24 FAST 17:30 Y Y S 17:20 17:27 SLOW 17:36 N N G 17:27 17:34 FAST 17:40 Y Y S 17:30 17:37 FAST 17:46 N N G 17:36 17:43 MRYLND ONLY 17:50 Y Y S 17:39 17:46 MNR PK ONLY 17:53 Y Y G 17:42 17:49 F. GATE ONLY 17:56 Y Y G 17:46 17:53 MRYLND ONLY 18:00 Y Y S 17:49 17:56 MNR PK ONLY 18:03 Y Y S 17:52 17:59 F.GATE ONLY 18:06 Y Y G 17:56 18:03 MRYLND ONLY 18:10 Y Y S 17:59 18:06 MNR PK ONLY 18:13 Y Y G 18:02 18:09 F.GATE ONLY 18:16 Y Y G -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1980 17:00 17:08 FAST 17:14 Y Y S 17:03 17:11 SLOW 17:20 - - I 17:07 17:15 FAST 17:22 N N G 17:09 17:17 FAST 17:24 Y Y S 17:11 17:19 FAST 17:26 Y Y G 17:13 17:21 SLOW 17:30 - - I 17:17 17:25 FAST 17:32 N N G 17:19 17:27 FAST 17:34 Y Y S 17:21 17:29 FAST 17:36 Y Y G 17:23 17:31 SLOW 17:40 - - I 17:28 17:36 FAST 17:42 N N G 17:30 17:38 FAST 17:44 Y Y S 17:32 17:40 SLOW 17:49 Y Y G 17:38 17:46 FAST 17:52 N N G 17:40 17:48 FAST 17:54 Y Y S 17:42 17:50 SLOW 17:59 Y Y G 17:48 17:56 FAST 18:01 N N G 17:50 17:58 FAST 18:03 Y Y S 17:52 18:00 SLOW 18:09 Y Y G 17:58 18:06 FAST 18:11 N N G 18:00 18:08 FAST 18:13 Y Y S 18:02 18:10 SLOW 18:19 - - I Destinations: Ilford / Gidea Park / Shenfield Fast - non stop. Slow - calls at the three intermediate stations Apologies for slightly wonky lines! For some reason the first seven lines are very much out of place, even though in the "compose message" window they are perfectly aligned one below the other! Simon
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 18, 2015 11:00:54 GMT
@spsmiller
If I understood Stapler's email correctly, the 1940s diveunder at Stratford was not just proposed but provided. It has been in usee ever since, by all trains between Stratford and Leyton.
I think you will find that the GE lines out of Liv Street handled rather more than 22 tph in 1980, and certainly more than 18 in 2014. The difference is that the rise in outer suburban commuting, fuelled by the boom in house prices, has led to a greater proportion of services running to destinations way beyond Shenfield, and these are presumably not included in your statistics.
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Post by pridley on May 18, 2015 11:34:41 GMT
There are no "slow" trains into LV from Stratford - they are all fast with no intermediate station. As for Stansted, they have had permission to increase the mppa for years, and patronage of the airport station has been diminishing. The trains are never full. Quite agree that all GEML services should stop at Stratford, which is now the centre of the universe. There was, of course, a flyunder provided at Stratford in the late 40s, for the LNE Loughton and Epping trains, which became part of the Central Line. IMO there is a good case for confining the Central Line to the Loop and 4-tracking to Leytonstone to allow the Epping Line to become NR again. The govt LOIS study some ten years ago mooted an Ongar-Chelmsford extension to serve new development in the mid-Essex countryside and relieve the GEML. Now, there's a thought.... That is a great idea about mainline services to Epping then Chelmsford. I do wonder if that route will be taken by Victoria Line once Crossrail 2 eases it. I do not see how Liverpool Street could be expanded to cope with this new route given that it needs massive expansion just to allow optimum use of existing lines! With Central Line restricted to the loop, could we see reinstatement of the branch to Seven Kings for Crossrail services for Central line trains presently terminating at Hainault? The additional services could go Gants Hill to Seven Kings via a very short tunnel extension to pick up Crossrail 2 passengers. Indeed, would it not be necessary to have access to the Seven Kings sidings if double the number of trains went via Gants Hill? A small branch there would be irresistible to me if I ran TFL.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 18, 2015 14:25:20 GMT
We are teetering on the boundary of RIPAS with this discussion at the moment, though I accept that the opinions are generally well-founded and thought through. Can we please keep to the topic of the transfer and discuss any potential ideas for what might be on the appropriate board.
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Dom K
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Post by Dom K on May 18, 2015 17:16:56 GMT
Surprised to have a 315 do the 1817 Stratford to Hertford East. This is the first time this has happened and maybe because of transfers to LO, as the new timetable has started already! I was expecting all 315s to go to TFL and LO with only a handful of 317s joining them.
Will see tomorrow if this is a repeat. This is actually welcome as this train has more standing capacity on what is normally a crushed journey
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Post by stapler on May 18, 2015 20:09:59 GMT
That's the first time I've heard someone applauding the arrival of a cl 315, bigbaddom! Just a pity replacing them on the Chenfords will take so long...
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 7:17:47 GMT
When LOROL get the WA routes, will they continue on with DOO or will guards? Also will the new LOROL train be fitted with guards equipment? Would love to see the guards back again. I miss them Boris, you lie!
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Post by ashlar on May 19, 2015 20:53:07 GMT
When LOROL get the WA routes, will they continue on with DOO or will guards? Also will the new LOROL train be fitted with guards equipment? Would love to see the guards back again. I miss them Boris, you lie! This is unlikely seeing as LO just removed the guards from the rest of their network. What I hope we will see is cleaner trains and cleaner, staffed stations - and pronto!
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Post by pridley on May 19, 2015 21:22:42 GMT
Hertford East and Broxbourne trains at peak have been running four carriages (total mayhem). Nobody at Abelio has a definitive answer, but it seems that they are taking carriages from the most unloved parts of the network to refurb trains for TFL. Unbelievable given that this was planned long ago and TFL could have borrowed carriages from better served parts of the network that do not get TWO TRAINS PER HOUR at peak!!
TFL posters are now up on stations with the caption about them getting to work after May 31st.
Footbridge between Hackney Downs and Central is almost complete.
My big question is, what impact will this have on places north of Hackney along these lines? Folk in Hackney are now priced out after a decade of gentrification and these folk are fully aware what Overground does to a place over time. What happens when folk in Stoke Newington find that they can get a 2 bed house in Edmonton for just over £250k when a similar sized property in Stokey, 10mins away by train, costs £800k? What happens to the young families who want to be close to Hackney, don't want to leave London but need extra space? What will this affect do to house prices?
Also, artists, etc. are being priced out of Hackney Wick, just as they were priced out of Shoreditch. Will they start shifting towards the industrial units further up the Lea Valley? When will we see the first trendy cafe or craft brewery place set up in Edmonton Green, which right up until now looks like it has not emerged yet from the 1930's depression let alone the 1970's industrial depression blood bath that will have devastated the area.
Also, buses running up the Hertford Road are completely beyond capacity well after peak hours even now. Is there a precedent for TFL boosting bus provision near Overground stations in Hackney and elsewhere? I would imagine that this is a key tool they have for boosting rail demand, just bus them in. More buses would certainly be very welcome.
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Post by snoggle on May 19, 2015 23:33:50 GMT
The precedent with the North and East London Lines has been to reduce parallel bus services not increase them. The 242 was reduced at off peak times as it parallels the ELL from Dalston southwards. The 38 was reduced through Hackney to Canonbury / Balls Pond Road because demand fell. I am surprised that the 30 and 277 haven't also been cut on the Hackney - Highbury corridor. The 149 gets Borismasters this Autumn so that automatically reduces capacity as the buses carry fewer people than conventional ones. I suspect TfL will be hoping that, in time, people will transfer from buses to rail on the Edmonton - Hackney - Bethnal Green corridor especially as off peak fares will be the same on Overground and Bus outside of Zone 1.
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Post by pridley on May 20, 2015 7:32:50 GMT
Gosh, I hope this does not happen, because most folk rely on buses to get to the rail stations in the first place! Out here, stations are far apart!!
I guess we will have to be campaigning to avoid that. Also, there are many unemployed / low wage individuals in Edmonton who could not afford a rail pass whatever happens.
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Post by sawb on May 20, 2015 8:11:14 GMT
The precedent with the North and East London Lines has been to reduce parallel bus services not increase them. The 242 was reduced at off peak times as it parallels the ELL from Dalston southwards. The 38 was reduced through Hackney to Canonbury / Balls Pond Road because demand fell. I am surprised that the 30 and 277 haven't also been cut on the Hackney - Highbury corridor. The 149 gets Borismasters this Autumn so that automatically reduces capacity as the buses carry fewer people than conventional ones. I suspect TfL will be hoping that, in time, people will transfer from buses to rail on the Edmonton - Hackney - Bethnal Green corridor especially as off peak fares will be the same on Overground and Bus outside of Zone 1. 149s to get the NBFL.....interesting! Didn't realise the 242s had been cut on their route. Have to say s someone who uses the Liverpool Street to Homerton section quite frequently, I hadn't really noticed.
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Post by snoggle on May 20, 2015 9:14:55 GMT
Gosh, I hope this does not happen, because most folk rely on buses to get to the rail stations in the first place! Out here, stations are far apart!! I guess we will have to be campaigning to avoid that. Also, there are many unemployed / low wage individuals in Edmonton who could not afford a rail pass whatever happens. TfL have been tinkering with capacity on the 149/279/349 for years. The 349 has been reduced in length and the 73 was scrapped north of Stoke Newington when converted from bendy buses despite people using the somewhat irregular garage journeys. You are quite right about loadings on those buses and the demographics of the area - buses are always busy whenever I use them in Edmonton. I don't think there will be an immediate reduction on the buses but TfL will watch what is going on and make adjustments later. My guess is that there would be no substantive reduction until such time as TfL have introduced new trains and upped the frequencies, especially off peak. No need to man the barricades just yet.
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Post by stapler on May 20, 2015 12:36:04 GMT
There are signs of "gentrification" in Walthamstow outside the village (already high prices) and the Highams Park hinterland (Wood St and north), so doubtless Silver St etc will move the same way.
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Post by pridley on May 21, 2015 17:35:09 GMT
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 21, 2015 19:08:34 GMT
It's not exactly "leaked", it's on the TfL site!
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