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Post by stapler on Jun 23, 2015 21:46:49 GMT
I walked the Palace Gates branch a couple of years after closure/lifting. West Green station had been rebuilt by BR a few years before it was closed. Noel Park station was ideally placed for shopping in Wood Green, but was not open during shopping hours. Deliberate running down....
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Post by mrjrt on Jun 23, 2015 21:58:25 GMT
...but a recognised mistake intended to be rectified (expensively!) by Crossrail 2's northern branch.
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 24, 2015 0:40:06 GMT
...but a recognised mistake intended to be rectified (expensively!) by Crossrail 2's northern branch. really? I thought that all stations in this area are going to be interchanges with other still open stations. That is not much good for people in areas remote from rail services. Also, what are needed are momentoes from closed stations in heavily built up areas which should never have been closed that can be shown to DFT, treasury officials and politicians so that they can understand why people are hostile towards their transport policies. In addition, especially treasury officials need constant reminding of the cost of rectification of the closures, to help them understand why trying to save threepence today can cost pounds later! Simon
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Post by stapler on Jun 24, 2015 7:23:54 GMT
In fairness to the ER, patronage of the Palace Gates branch had been undermined by the pre-WW2 Piccadilly extensions, and the growth of employment in the West End. Gone were the days when myriad clerks in West Green and Noel Park flocked onto GE trains to get to the City. Although the branch was served by the North Woolwich - Stratford - Lea Bridge - S Tottenham service, these were places few people wanted to travel to, and if they did have to go eastward, the 625 trolleybus offered a fast and cheap alternative. Also, the attractiveness of Alexandra Park and Palace as a tourist destination from other parts of London was nil by the 1950s, except on race days.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jun 24, 2015 9:20:10 GMT
...but a recognised mistake intended to be rectified (expensively!) by Crossrail 2's northern branch. really? I thought that all stations in this area are going to be interchanges with other still open stations. That is not much good for people in areas remote from rail services The sites of the stations on the Palace Gates branch can hardly be described as remote from rail services, as Seven Sisters is still open, and the sites of Noel Park and Palace Gates are very close to, respectively, Turnpike Lane (Picc) and Alexandra Palace (GN), all three of which are on the proposed route of XR2 (which follows the line of the old branch remarkably closely). West Green (between Seven Sisters and Turnpike Line/Noel Park) is the only former station on the branch that wouldn't have a direct replacement. Someone - I thought it was on this thread but I can't find it now - suggested Noel Park would have been ideal for serving Wood Green Shopping City. Well, yes - except that the shopping centre couldn't have been built there if the station still occupied the site.
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Post by peterc on Jun 24, 2015 9:22:23 GMT
When they still unloaded ships in Docklands nobody could reasonably anticipate the reversal of the gradual westward shift in employment.
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Post by stapler on Jun 24, 2015 9:46:17 GMT
I know the shopping city came after the railway - but Wood Green High Rd was pre-1960 still a major shopping street. Canary Wharf, though many Londoners though the proposal preposterous at the time, certainly did shift the centre of gravity of London's economic activity
There should have been much more care given to protecting the routes of lines whose services had been withdrawn. Largely unbuilt-over ones, like Stepney East to North Greenwich, were readily reusable. Though that said, even an untouched route, like Hall Fm Jc- Lea Bridge Jc, seemingly costs a fortune to restore
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Post by Chris M on Jun 24, 2015 10:11:22 GMT
I don't know about the routes under discussion here, but for some (many?) of the Beeching-era cuts there was active effort made to ensure that reinstating the route would be difficult.
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Post by stapler on Jun 24, 2015 12:22:56 GMT
I think Palace Gates was actually identified for closure just before the Beeching process got under way. Unless there was some engineering renewal needed, I'm a bit surprised that it wasn't retained as a diversionary route, GN to GE; the Ferme Park curve was really rather unsatisfactory in that regard!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jun 24, 2015 12:34:49 GMT
I think Palace Gates was actually identified for closure just before the Beeching process got under way. Passeneger services ceased 7 January 1963, eleven weeks before the Beeching Report was published on 27th March. Goods services lasted another 18 months, until 5th October 1964.
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Post by John Tuthill on Jun 24, 2015 12:44:39 GMT
I think Palace Gates was actually identified for closure just before the Beeching process got under way. Passeneger services ceased 7 January 1963, eleven weeks before the Beeching Report was published on 27th March. Goods services lasted another 18 months, until 5th October 1964. Check out the 'Closed Stations' web page. Gives a good potted history of the whole line.
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Post by pridley on Jun 24, 2015 13:01:40 GMT
Rumours now are that Bombardier has confirmed to press that it is offering a product from the Aventra family, and not a 378 clone. A press release confirming what they are offering (and possibly a rendering of the train) should be due in just under a week. That is very interesting. I presume these are a step up from the 378s presently in use? I note their high speed, with the Metro standard doing 90mph. I did wonder if TFL will attempt to boost speeds, though was disappointed to see that the 1980s NLL timetable had the same duration between Stratford and Richmond for example as it has now. I would imagine though that there needs to be similarity to, say, the Metropolitan Line layout because if the amount of people popping on for a few stops. This adds grist to my suspicion that TFL, Network Rail and DfT are gearing up to shift emphasis on Anglia lines out of Liverpool Street once London Bridge is complete. Does this choice of EMU suggest a deeper commitment to services in this area than previous thought? I also wonder what TFL's models are for suppressed demand along the line. Personally I think it will be tremendous. Vast swathes of areas north of Seven Sisters with not a single middle class person, and yet countless folk in Hackney in 1 bed flats gagging to have the family homes that suburbia provides. Once you have a few trendy cafes, bars and boutiques, I believe that they will flood in. Particularly to Enfield Town and also Edmonton Green and south. I have my doubts about Southbury and Turkey Street gentrifying until Crossrail 2 unless frequencies there can be sorted from the present 2tph, and there does need to be a new station at Caterhatch Lane for Enfield Highway. But I doubt that this has not been considered. They do look good. What are the pros and cons vs the 378s? uk.bombardier.com/en/transportation/presence-in-country/future-concepts-projects.html
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Post by ashlar on Jun 24, 2015 15:24:56 GMT
I agree that North East London is going to continue to be the gentrification hotspot for the next few years, and these line upgrades may fuel it.
Good transport links aren't essential though. Stoke Newington (which was the first area of North-East London to gentrify) also has some of the worst transport links!
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Post by pridley on Jun 24, 2015 15:48:49 GMT
I agree that North East London is going to continue to be the gentrification hotspot for the next few years, and these line upgrades may fuel it. Good transport links aren't essential though. Stoke Newington (which was the first area of North-East London to gentrify) also has some of the worst transport links! Not so sure about Stoke Newington being a good comparison. It has Manor House and is also a very short bus hop to Dalston Junction and the NLL for fantastic routes into the City. It is also viable to commute into the City from Stokey by bus. It is also a very nice place. Edmonton and further north on the other hand are far more reliant on the West Anglia line and have ropey shopping precincts with no nice cafes, shops or or public houses to speak of, yet plenty of opportunity for regeneration and ample supply of decent sized family homes. There is zero gentrification yet north of White Hart Lane Stadium, and even it has not yet caused surrounding Georgian terraces to be restored. All gentrification thus far has been focussed on walking distance areas from Victoria Line stations. This is what I expect to flow north, with abated breath!! The first shoe to drop is for developers to start sniffing around Edmonton Green shopping centre. If that and surrounding estates get comprehensive redevelopment (maybe that will follow completion of works at White Hart Lane Stadium) then the place can pull itself into the 21st Century!! With the average 2 bed house being £850k in Stoke Newington and the average 3 bed home in Edmonton (12mins train away) being £300k, I think folk in Stokey flats looking for a family home should jump ship before suitable family homes further north start to catch up. Things really start to become interesting if the comprehensive spending review, as anticipates, provides funding for the next stage of Crossrail 2, bringing Edmonton and the Upper Lea Valley within short distance of the West End. Unlike the Shenfield line, stations here have never had good connections. It is a game changer to have both West Anglia lines being invested in at the same time.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Jun 24, 2015 16:36:32 GMT
Rumours now are that Bombardier has confirmed to press that it is offering a product from the Aventra family, and not a 378 clone. A press release confirming what they are offering (and possibly a rendering of the train) should be due in just under a week. That is very interesting. I presume these are a step up from the 378s presently in use? I note their high speed, with the Metro standard doing 90mph. I did wonder if TFL will attempt to boost speeds, though was disappointed to see that the 1980s NLL timetable had the same duration between Stratford and Richmond for example as it has now. I would imagine though that there needs to be similarity to, say, the Metropolitan Line layout because if the amount of people popping on for a few stops. This adds grist to my suspicion that TFL, Network Rail and DfT are gearing up to shift emphasis on Anglia lines out of Liverpool Street once London Bridge is complete. Does this choice of EMU suggest a deeper commitment to services in this area than previous thought? I also wonder what TFL's models are for suppressed demand along the line. Personally I think it will be tremendous. Vast swathes of areas north of Seven Sisters with not a single middle class person, and yet countless folk in Hackney in 1 bed flats gagging to have the family homes that suburbia provides. Once you have a few trendy cafes, bars and boutiques, I believe that they will flood in. Particularly to Enfield Town and also Edmonton Green and south. I have my doubts about Southbury and Turkey Street gentrifying until Crossrail 2 unless frequencies there can be sorted from the present 2tph, and there does need to be a new station at Caterhatch Lane for Enfield Highway. But I doubt that this has not been considered. They do look good. What are the pros and cons vs the 378s? uk.bombardier.com/en/transportation/presence-in-country/future-concepts-projects.htmlI suspect the internal layout will be very similar to the 378s as this allows them to shift the greatest number of people. That area of London will quickly become as overcrowded as others so it would seem to be a prudent measure to make sure the capacity on the trains is up to the task. No doubt the newer trains will be more efficient energy wise.
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Post by domh245 on Jun 24, 2015 17:15:17 GMT
Yup, they'll be lighter (new construction methods, inboard-bogies), and more energy efficient as a result. As for the seating layout, whilst the 378 style longitudinal seating would shift the most, TfL seem to have got it into a lot of people's heads that they will go for an S8 style mix, which could cause much wailing and gnashing of teeth with residents of Enfield, Cheshunt, and Chingford. It'll be interesting to see how they do it. S8 style seating in some areas or in certain cars perhaps?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jun 24, 2015 19:19:20 GMT
The average journey distance is greater on a radial route, and there is also less "churn" at intermediate stations - far more people travel all the way from Chingford to Liverpool Street than go from Richmond to Stratford*, for example, so I would expect S8 style seating to be more appropriate
* and most who do want to make that trip would go via Waterloo
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Post by Antje on Jun 24, 2015 19:21:17 GMT
At the moment, the current state of the ex-Greater Anglia lines are like what North London line used to be, before staffing returned and all that.
In my mind at the moment: what was Greater Anglia thinking when looking after the fleet that London Overground now has to put up with?
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Post by Chris M on Jun 24, 2015 19:36:16 GMT
In my mind at the moment: what was Greater Anglia thinking when looking after the fleet that London Overground now has to put up with? They were thinking about their bottom line.
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Post by pridley on Jun 24, 2015 20:32:18 GMT
I suspect the internal layout will be very similar to the 378s as this allows them to shift the greatest number of people. That area of London will quickly become as overcrowded as others so it would seem to be a prudent measure to make sure the capacity on the trains is up to the task. No doubt the newer trains will be more efficient energy wise. The question remains for me whether it will be like NLL or Metropolitan. They do have opportunity to move towards 5 car trains (10 at peak) but maybe that is not enough if as you say, it becomes overcrowded. My main issue is whether the seats are hard like rock (NLL) or soft as a couch (Metropolitan & Circle). I pray for the latter. I do prefer the Metropolitan layout and do feel NLL layout is not best for a line like this. I certainly do not wish to stand for 30mins!
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Post by pridley on Jun 24, 2015 20:34:26 GMT
In my mind at the moment: what was Greater Anglia thinking when looking after the fleet that London Overground now has to put up with? They were thinking about their bottom line. They also had a short franchise and probably knew full well that it would be devolved. So they would act for their shareholders, not having any long term capital interest. Simply ship profits out the back door. The Parent companies can then bid on other lines with a fresh franchise face rather than Abelio and their reputation does not follow them. TFL, in contrast, have a long term stake now in the line. This is a fundamental flaw in the franchise system.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Jun 24, 2015 22:50:39 GMT
I suspect the internal layout will be very similar to the 378s as this allows them to shift the greatest number of people. That area of London will quickly become as overcrowded as others so it would seem to be a prudent measure to make sure the capacity on the trains is up to the task. No doubt the newer trains will be more efficient energy wise. The question remains for me whether it will be like NLL or Metropolitan. They do have opportunity to move towards 5 car trains (10 at peak) but maybe that is not enough if as you say, it becomes overcrowded. My main issue is whether the seats are hard like rock (NLL) or soft as a couch (Metropolitan & Circle). I pray for the latter. I do prefer the Metropolitan layout and do feel NLL layout is not best for a line like this. I certainly do not wish to stand for 30mins! You may well have to stand regardless. In the death, the Met layout won't make a great deal of difference aside from a few more people not being able to get on the train. I hate to say it but you've moved to an area where standing on a train will soon become the norm unless you board at a terminus. I put up with it on the Central Line, a similar distance from the centre as the WA Overground lines, until I was 22 (1987, yes it was packed to bursting then as well) until I moved a long way away. I don't envy you what's to come down there. Until the authorities address the problem of too many people in London it's a lost cause transport wise.
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 24, 2015 23:19:16 GMT
In my mind at the moment: what was Greater Anglia thinking when looking after the fleet that London Overground now has to put up with? They were thinking about their bottom line. not even a decent livery for their trains... plain white with coloured doors is just plain boring. Simon
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Post by snoggle on Jun 24, 2015 23:50:40 GMT
At the moment, the current state of the ex-Greater Anglia lines are like what North London line used to be, before staffing returned and all that. In my mind at the moment: what was Greater Anglia thinking when looking after the fleet that London Overground now has to put up with? It was doing the absolute bare minimum in order to comply with its franchise obligations while avoiding having conked out trains all over the place. It seems to have been a massive daily juggling act to get trains into and out of service without totally cocking up the service. To give Abellio credit they seem to have been extremely good at the juggling act and avoiding spending time and money on maintenance and overhaul. As others have said the short franchise term will not have helped matters because Abellio would have been unable to justify any substantive self funded spend because they'd never see the payback in 2-3 years. You get bad enough perverse behaviours and front ended investment spend on a 7-8 year franchise but you stand no chance on a 2-3 year term. Worse the direct award has stretched things out closer to 5 years but again nothing of any great substance can be done but if DfT had given a 5 year term at the start then we might have seen a slightly better railway.
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Post by crusty54 on Jun 25, 2015 4:29:18 GMT
Abellio did not own the trains. They had a contract for the supply of trains from a Rosco who had a contract with Bombardier.
TfL Rail have the same set up at present.
The trains moved over were not decided by Abellio.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jun 25, 2015 7:08:47 GMT
Abellio did not own the trains. The trains moved over were not decided by Abellio. No, they weren't. But they knew which ones would be moving (all the 315s went either to LO or TfL Rail), and therefore would soon be Somebody Else's Problem.
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Post by crusty54 on Jun 25, 2015 7:41:18 GMT
Abellio did not own the trains. The trains moved over were not decided by Abellio. No, they weren't. But they knew which ones would be moving (all the 315s went either to LO or TfL Rail), and therefore would soon be Somebody Else's Problem. But not their decision. The Rosco, TfL and Bombardier should have been more alert but only from day 1 of the new contract.
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Post by pridley on Jun 25, 2015 15:01:47 GMT
Abellio did not own the trains. The trains moved over were not decided by Abellio. No, they weren't. But they knew which ones would be moving (all the 315s went either to LO or TfL Rail), and therefore would soon be Somebody Else's Problem. It is also possible that TFL wanted the worst railway possible so that the turnaround would be more dramatic.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 15:37:19 GMT
It is also possible that TFL wanted the worst railway possible so that the turnaround would be more dramatic. Not really...
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Post by stapler on Jun 25, 2015 15:55:50 GMT
<<not even a decent livery for their trains... plain white with coloured doors is just plain boring.>> AGA's was plain white latterly with awful graphics. NXEA's was plain white with even worse graphics. One's was so complex you couldn't believe it. Come back rail blue and grey....
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