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Post by A60stock on Aug 27, 2014 13:57:14 GMT
any stations people could list which are still in almost original state since the time given in the title? Hard to find stations which havent been hit by modernisation!
Examples i can think of are euston square and stepney green. any more?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2014 16:09:54 GMT
Euston Square has had two lifts put in within the last 10 years.
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Post by crusty54 on Aug 27, 2014 17:20:32 GMT
Rickmansworth avoided the 90s update
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Post by superteacher on Aug 27, 2014 18:21:36 GMT
Holland Park seems to have avoided being refurbished.
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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 27, 2014 18:31:37 GMT
Rickmansworth avoided the 90s update Isn't there a preservation order on Kennington, as its basically as originally built?
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 27, 2014 18:35:33 GMT
Caledonian Road & Russell Square(albeit with newer but not ultra-modern lifts).
Both are very much cleaner than they were then, but are basically unaltered.
Helped by both being Grade II listed as well as excellent examples of Leslie Green's work.
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Post by A60stock on Aug 27, 2014 18:46:54 GMT
crusty54 you mention the 90s update, what specifically would this have changed and are any other stations along the branch 90s changed?
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 27, 2014 18:56:38 GMT
Rickmansworth avoided the 90s update Isn't there a preservation order on Kennington, as its basically as originally built? Yes, Grade II listed, as it's the only surviving original(ie 1890) CSLR T Phillips Figgis design, complete with faux cupola.
Which-well, we have a resident expert here who will tell us what the cupola was for.
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Post by crusty54 on Aug 27, 2014 19:45:30 GMT
crusty54 you mention the 90s update, what specifically would this have changed and are any other stations along the branch 90s changed? Around two thirds of stations got a refurb in the 90s. Kennington got a lot of work in the late 90s including replacement tiles in the original format.
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Post by CSLR on Aug 27, 2014 20:57:00 GMT
Yes, Grade II listed, as it's the only surviving original(ie 1890) CSLR T Phillips Figgis design, complete with faux cupola. Which-well, we have a resident expert here who will tell us what the cupola was for. Until the right person comes along, I can add a few facts to what BF has already said about Kennington. There have been some alterations, but it is a pretty close external representation of the first C&SLR stations. The original lifts were hydraulic, so there was only the need for minimal overhead equipment. As built, the dome was therefore pretty much decorative, complete with a weather vane on the top. The design came into its own when electric lifts were installed and there was a greater need for space. At around that time, some horrible utilitarian extensions with access doors were added to the side of the dome. These were finally removed when the station was 'restored' in the 1980s. The restoration involved a complete re-cladding and adding some new woodwork, particularly at the points where those ghastly extensions were taken out.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2014 21:12:52 GMT
Upminster Bridge, out in the sticks admittedly, has hardly changed over the years.
There are modern gates and ticket machines at the entrance, but the swastica in the tiles of the entrance hall is still there. (At the time the station was built it was a good luck symbol, but the Nazis turned it round and used it as their emblem.)
The tunnel under the east bound line and the stairs and platform are largely unchanged. When I remember it in the early 1940s the tunnel was lit with the blue painted pigmy lamps that were the door signal lamps on the trains, and the carriages had them in the roofs during surface running in the black out.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 27, 2014 21:32:41 GMT
Yes, Grade II listed, as it's the only surviving original(ie 1890) CSLR T Phillips Figgis design, complete with faux cupola. Which-well, we have a resident expert here who will tell us what the cupola was for. Until the right person comes along, I can add a few facts to what BF has already said about Kennington. There have been some alterations, but it is a pretty close external representation of the first C&SLR stations. The original lifts were hydraulic, so there was only the need for minimal overhead equipment. As built, the dome was therefore pretty much decorative, complete with a weather vane on the top. The design came into its own when electric lifts were installed and there was a greater need for space. At around that time, some horrible utilitarian extensions with access doors were added to the side of the dome. These were finally removed when the station was 'restored' in the 1980s. The restoration involved a complete re-cladding and adding some new woodwork, particularly at the points where those ghastly extensions were taken out. Thanks, I knew you'd provide the full and correct facts!
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Post by Colin D on Aug 27, 2014 21:42:42 GMT
Chigwell has not changed much if any, and likely a few more on the eastern end of the Central. I believe the former Station Masters house is still next door and just around the corner are/were staff housing. In fact my mate moved into one of those and may still live there, I'll have to check when I'm home in a few weeks.
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Post by crusty54 on Aug 28, 2014 7:08:18 GMT
It has to be remembered that every ticket office was rebuilt in the 80s for the new ticketing system.
This affected the smaller stations with big modifications.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 28, 2014 7:54:52 GMT
I'm sure many smaller stations are pretty much unchanged - partly because there's often not that much to actually alter.
Of course, they would look very changed to anyone coming straight from the 50's because the automatic gates dominate the smaller spaces.
Also, I seem to remember Earl's court being 'refurbished' twice since I've been passing through and using it as an interchange. In both cases I was looking forward to decent train describers (although I hoped they'd keep the originals as well), but, of course, nothing doing, there. In fact, several 'refurbishment' I've seen appear to have been little more than a thorough clean and decorate.
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Post by CSLR on Aug 28, 2014 10:15:34 GMT
Of course, they would look very changed to anyone coming straight from the 50's because the automatic gates dominate the smaller spaces. They certainly are different. There is generally a lot more space now. 1950s/1960s booking offices were very much like an assault course, but you had problems before you even got into the station. There was a newspaper seller at the entrance of almost every station taking money and giving change to little groups of passengers, which sometimes caused more of an obstruction than today's freebie distributors. There were three evening papers in the fifties (Evening Standard, Evening News and The Star) sometimes with different vendors selling each one. Sometimes there were even flower sellers, and the person making a selection invariably stood on the side of the stall that caused the greatest obstruction to the station entrance. On entering the booking hall you almost certainly had to push past the people who were queuing at banks of wooden telephone boxes positioned around the walls and past others trying to get tickets from the rows of upright single fare machines that dominated the middle of the floor. You probably had to stop there to buy a ticket yourself.* Regular travellers knew which ticket machines to use, but others had to walk up and down the banks reading the names of the stations on each machine until they found the one they wanted, which was not easy if people were crowding round the machines trying to be the next to use it (the layout did not make it easy to queue or to find the machine that you wanted on a strange station in a crowd). Once you got through all this, you were confronted by the bulky passimeter(s), usually bounded on each side by protective wooden barriers placed there to prevent the incoming passengers from knocking over those trying to buy a ticket at the window. Then and only then did you reached the final barrier with its wooden ticket collectors boxes that was stretched across the floor roughly where the ticket barriers are today. With no mobile phones, people often visited tube stations just to make phone calls (there was a good supply of phone boxes inside stations and they were more likely to work). Add to this the fact that there were no travel cards, although you could get a station to station season ticket in the 1950s if you filled in an application form. People therefore used tickets, but the equipment required to supply them and the struggle trying to get them during peak times meant that 1950s/1960s booking halls were certainly 'booking halls' and not 'circulating areas'. * Except on very rare occasions, LT Underground tickets could not be used on the buses or from different stations. A lot of regular travellers therefore bought single tickets so that they could vary their journey if necessary, which is why the booking halls were so busy.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 28, 2014 10:33:51 GMT
Of course, they would look very changed to anyone coming straight from the 50's because the automatic gates dominate the smaller spaces. They certainly are different. There is generally a lot more space now. 1950s/1960s booking offices were very much like an assault course, but you had problems before you even got into the station. There was a newspaper seller at the entrance of almost every station taking money and giving change to little groups of passengers, which sometimes caused more of an obstruction than today's freebie distributors. There were three evening papers in the fifties (Evening Standard, Evening News and The Star) sometimes with different vendors selling each one. Sometimes there were even flower sellers, and the person making a selection invariably stood on the side of the stall that caused the greatest obstruction to the station entrance. On entering the booking hall you almost certainly had to push past the people who were queuing at banks of wooden telephone boxes positioned around the walls and past others trying to get tickets from the rows of upright single fare machines that dominated the middle of the floor. You probably had to stop there to buy a ticket yourself.* Regular travellers knew which ticket machines to use, but others had to walk up and down the banks reading the names of the stations on each machine until they found the one they wanted, which was not easy if people were crowding round the machines trying to be the next to use it (the layout did not make it easy to queue or to find the machine that you wanted on a strange station in a crowd). Once you got through all this, you were confronted by the bulky passimeter(s), usually bounded on each side protective wooden barriers placed there to prevent the incoming passengers from knocking over those trying to buy a ticket at the window. Then and only then did you reached the final barrier with its wooden ticket collectors boxes that was stretched across the floor roughly where the ticket barriers are today. With no mobile phones, people often visited tube stations just to make phone calls (there was a good supply of phone boxes inside stations and they were more likely to work). Add to this the fact that there were no travel cards, although you could get a station to station season ticket in the 1950s if you filled in an application form. People therefore used tickets, but the equipment required to supply them and the struggle trying to get them during peak times meant that 1950s/1960s booking halls were certainly 'booking halls' and not 'circulating areas'. * Except on very rare occasions, LT Underground tickets could not be used on the buses or from different stations. A lot of regular travellers therefore bought single tickets so that they could vary their journey if necessary, which is why the booking halls were so busy. Yes, and the three different sellers for the three different London evenings persisted elsewhere. Like on Greenwich High Road, nowhere near a railway station. When I was young, I was regularly sent down by Dad to buy all three for the classified football results of a Saturday evening.
As this happened after we'd already heard the results on Sports Report, you may wonder why. I can't tell you!!
The single fare machines were like the computers of the day-big and very boxy indeed. I liked them, because when they worked they were excellent. Unfortunately, in the rush hours especially, 30 or 40 consecutive passengers using the same one was often the case, with less than efficient output occurring for those at number 29 or so in the queue. Otherwise known as a foul-up in the trade.
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Post by CSLR on Aug 28, 2014 10:40:39 GMT
The single fare machines were like the computers of the day-big and very boxy indeed. I liked them, because when they worked they were excellent. Unfortunately, in the rush hours especially, 30 or 40 consecutive passengers using the same one was often the case, with less than efficient output occurring for those at number 29 or so in the queue. Otherwise known as a foul-up in the trade. Ah yes! And the booking clerk with the lid of the ticket machine up replacing a roll or squatting on the floor with the ticket machine door open so that he could empty the coins into a big metal container - which of course took him away from the ticket window!....and what fun when a machine jammed and nobody could buy a ticket.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 28, 2014 10:58:06 GMT
Once you got through all this, you were confronted by the bulky passimeter(s), . Then and only then did you reached the final barrier with its wooden ticket collectors boxes . I thought the whole point of the passimeter was that it doubled as a ticket selling booth and barrier. Why would there be a separate barrier?
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Post by CSLR on Aug 28, 2014 11:13:57 GMT
Once you got through all this, you were confronted by the bulky passimeter(s), . Then and only then did you reached the final barrier with its wooden ticket collectors boxes . I thought the whole point of the passimeter was that it doubled as a ticket selling booth and barrier. Why would there be a separate barrier? Not necessarily. On stations that had ticket machines and passimeters, you often bought your ticket and then proceeded to another barrier to get it checked. I can give two former C&SLR stations as examples. Oval had this layout and was a really crowded station. The next station up, Kennington required passengers to buy their ticket and then either present it at the lifts or at the ticket collection box at the top of the emergency stairs.
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Post by phillw48 on Aug 28, 2014 12:34:06 GMT
And many stations had a Finlays Tobacco booth that could generate queue's/obstructions.
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Post by revupminster on Aug 28, 2014 14:36:13 GMT
passimeters at quiet stations or off peak acted as Ticket selling one side and ticket collecting on the other side both done by the booking clerk. West Brompton was a good example. Busy stations had passimeters selling tickets from both sides so had separate ticket collectors boxes. Leicester Square, St Jamess Park were typical.
British rail used passimeters at Upminster Bridge and Elm Park among others.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 28, 2014 14:47:50 GMT
And many stations had a Finlays Tobacco booth that could generate queue's/obstructions. And those without Findlays, invariably had an Angel Botibol's kiosk or booth, newspapers and tobacconists to the many.
Also, just as 'handily' placed to make peak period travel an 'experience', which today might be described as 'character-building'.
Hopefully, neither selling Black Twist shag tobacco still, sworn by my late Mum(who smoked Du Maurier)to be the worst smell she ever experienced, albeit on a tram from Camberwell; though I should think it would have be even dandier on a packed Tube carriage!
On the subject, although very much tidied and refurbished, does Clapham Common still have just the one narrow Island platform?
And Goldhawk Road hasn't changed much-wonder if the weed on the top left of the Eastern Entrance(in the daily quiz recently)was there in the 50's & 60's as well.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 28, 2014 14:52:10 GMT
I thought the whole point of the passimeter was that it doubled as a ticket selling booth and barrier. Why would there be a separate barrier? Not necessarily. On stations that had ticket machines and passimeters, you often bought your ticket and then proceeded to another barrier to get it checked. I can give two former C&SLR stations as examples. Oval had this layout and was a really crowded station. The next station up, Kennington required passengers to buy their ticket and then either present it at the lifts or at the ticket collection box at the top of the emergency stairs. Yes, having attended on every possible playing day(Thurs-Tues)of one Oval Test or another between 1957 and 1976, I would say crowded is the right word. Both for exiting and entering.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 28, 2014 15:09:54 GMT
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Post by CSLR on Aug 28, 2014 15:27:51 GMT
Also, just as 'handily' placed to make peak period travel an 'experience', which today might be described as 'character-building'. I think that the phrase 'character-building' is the perfect way to describe tube travel in the period that we are discussing. I remember speaking to a somewhat diminutive gentleman who told me how he dealt with being crushed by larger people or having cigarette ash dropped onto his shoulder. His ploy was to look up, smile at them sweetly and said "I'm so sorry", immediately after plunging the tip of his umbrella into their toes.
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Post by crusty54 on Aug 28, 2014 16:40:05 GMT
The train describers at Earl's Court and other SSL stations will have to wait for the new signalling system.
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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 28, 2014 17:12:10 GMT
And many stations had a Finlays Tobacco booth that could generate queue's/obstructions. And those without Findlays, invariably had an Angel Botibol's kiosk or booth, newspapers and tobacconists to the many.
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Post by Tomcakes on Aug 28, 2014 21:37:22 GMT
The train describers at Earl's Court and other SSL stations will have to wait for the new signalling system. Is Earls Court not listed? If so, is there an obligation to maintain the describer in a usable state? In the context of a multi-million (?billion?) pound project, a bit of wiring to interface the describer with the new system (in parallel, of course, with the new describers) shouldn't break the bank. Come to think of it there can't be many left - I know Stepney still has one, presumably there are a few more knocking about at quieter stations.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 28, 2014 21:55:57 GMT
The train describers at Earl's Court and other SSL stations will have to wait for the new signalling system. Is Earls Court not listed? If so, is there an obligation to maintain the describer in a usable state? In the context of a multi-million (?billion?) pound project, a bit of wiring to interface the describer with the new system (in parallel, of course, with the new describers) shouldn't break the bank. Come to think of it there can't be many left - I know Stepney still has one, presumably there are a few more knocking about at quieter stations. Yes, it's grade II. This is English Heritage's general guide to that: How will listing affect me?
Listing is not a preservation order, preventing change. Listing is an identification stage where buildings are marked and celebrated as having exceptional architectural or historic special interest, before any planning stage which may decide a building's future.
Listing does not freeze a building in time, it simply means that listed building consent must be applied for in order to make any changes to that building which might affect its special interest. Listed buildings can be altered, extended and sometimes even demolished within government planning guidance. The local authority uses listed building consent to make decisions that balance the site's historic significance against other issues such as its function, condition or viability. Find out more from our Planning Advice page.
I suspect from that, and having worked for EH in the past, you might be advised to take this matter up with TfL pretty soon and see what their plans are. I'm with you about their preservation being a must, so if we can get more details about their plans, we might be able to let them know the historic importance, because I can see an argument being presented that these are outdated, inefficient and can't be worked in parallel with modern digital describers.
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