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Post by A60stock on May 14, 2014 12:26:03 GMT
The london underground livery of red blue and white has been around for 25 years? (anybody know which line and train was the first to wear it, not talking about the trial liveries) and so i was wondering, most TOC's have changed their livery multiple times or at least once if theyve held the franchise since the beginning, e.g virgin and SWT.
So will the livery ever change? what do people think? Why or why not?
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 12:44:47 GMT
Well it has changed before, my favourite was when everything was Red, and of course we have had unpainted aluminium
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 14, 2014 12:56:45 GMT
The london underground livery of red blue and white has been around for 25 years? (anybody know which line and train was the first to wear it, not talking about the trial liveries) C stock was the first to wear it as standard, as part of the refurbishment programme which started in 1990. Unit 5585 was the pioneer (chosen as it was a hybrid C69/77 unit and thus hopefully there would be fewer nasty surprises later on in he refurishment programme). |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 17:40:56 GMT
I think the fact it hasn't changed in 25 years is a testiment to the designer, most liveries date over time (could you imagine having the Intercity swallow livery around today!?) but LU's still looks up to scratch. It also made contrasting doors a feature before DDA came in. I think the chap who came up with it was an engineer of some sort.
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Post by domh245 on May 14, 2014 17:42:58 GMT
I thought that he was a graphics designer who had a red white and blue tablecloth. Or was that just a rumour
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Post by crusty54 on May 14, 2014 18:12:56 GMT
Created by Henrion Ludlow and Schmidt with LUL engineers. Research showed that customers associated blue with the Underground. Think blue fascias.
Original idea was just blue doors. An engineer suggested painting the lower areas as they got dirty.
Colours could be applied to aluminium or painted surfaces.
There were problems with the old London Transport fleet names. They prevented wear in the bodywork and left raised shadows so area had to be ground down.
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Post by 100andthirty on May 15, 2014 19:21:29 GMT
Henrion Ludlow and Schmidt (HLS) came up with a book of designs that were truly horrible (my opinion and many others'). One of the engineers said "I can do better than that" and did. It's still in use 25 years later. The engineer did all the intellectual work. HLS produced the detail drawings for each stock.
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hobbayne
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Post by hobbayne on May 15, 2014 22:34:11 GMT
Whats DDA??
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2014 22:38:32 GMT
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metman
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Post by metman on May 16, 2014 9:49:51 GMT
The DDA has actually been replaced by the Equalities Act 2010 but many of the provisions of the DDA remain in it.
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class411
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Post by class411 on May 16, 2014 10:58:45 GMT
I think the red, blue, and white colour scheme has been around a lot longer than 25 years - just not on the trains.
I'm sure that has been the colour scheme on of the small folding maps from day one. And it's common on a lot of things LU.
If they ever changed it to use yellow/green/magenta/cyan the trains would look 'unbranded' compared to the rest of LU.
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metman
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Post by metman on May 16, 2014 11:02:06 GMT
Totally agree the line branding idea would have looked shocking!
I believe the engineer accedited was Mark Orsman?
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Post by Dstock7080 on May 16, 2014 14:55:27 GMT
Totally agree the line branding idea would have looked shocking! I believe the engineer accedited was Mark Orsman? In 1987 livery trials were conducted by corporate identity consultants 'Henrion, Ludlow & Schmidt' for LU. One of the trial liveries, rejected: (from "Underground Movement" by Paul Moss)  ©Capital Transport, Paul Moss |
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 16, 2014 15:10:54 GMT
I think the red, blue, and white colour scheme has been around a lot longer than 25 years - just not on the trains. And it's common on a lot of things LU. . Trains (and buses and trams) were traditionally red. (The London General legacy I think, although I've never seen a colour picture of an early District or LER train: how far back does that tradition go on the Underground?) blue is traditional on station entrancesThe roundel has always been red white and blue. |
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Post by wimblephil on May 16, 2014 18:56:51 GMT
Totally agree the line branding idea would have looked shocking! I believe the engineer accedited was Mark Orsman? In 1987 livery trials were conducted by corporate identity consultants 'Henrion, Ludlow & Schmidt' for LU. One of the trial liveries, rejected: (from "Underground Movement" by Paul Moss) ©Capital Transport, Paul Moss I actually quite like the individual line identities like that! But I can see how a consistant livery across the fleet is better for brand/company identity. I think having the poles and seats coloured by line identity was a nice compromise, so it's a great shame these are being lost with the introduction of S stock and the recent Northern Line refresh. I think they should make use of LED lighting or something to keep line identity. Nothing drastic, but just a subtle colouring for line distinction...! |
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Post by A60stock on May 20, 2014 12:12:14 GMT
maybe if instead of the red doors, the doors were the feature of the line colour e.g green doors d stock black doors northern line
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Post by domh245 on May 20, 2014 12:30:03 GMT
That would work well on the tube lines, but it would be a problem with S stock. Unless you go for stripy doors, a bit like those horrible looking Thameslink Program 319s
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Post by stuartroy on May 20, 2014 12:38:06 GMT
I hope it doesn't get changed again! Forgive the "bah, humbug" attitude but it's a dreadful waste of time and money. We should paint all the national rail stock in a unified livery and let the tocs put a small sticker in the corner!
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Post by Chris M on May 20, 2014 13:06:15 GMT
maybe if instead of the red doors, the doors were the feature of the line colour e.g green doors d stock black doors northern line You'd have DDA RVAR issues. The Northern, Central and Metropolitan colours would almost definitely be fine, and the District and Piccadilly probably so. The Vic, Circle, H&C and W&C colours probably don't contrast enough with the surrounding white though. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 20, 2014 18:00:15 GMT
I hope it doesn't get changed again! Forgive the "bah, humbug" attitude but it's a dreadful waste of time and money. We should paint all the national rail stock in a unified livery and let the tocs put a small sticker in the corner! The Scottish have definitely got this bit right; everything is in "ScotRail" livery with a little bit of First branding. If/when the TOC changes the ScotRail livery remains and the First logo turns into something else. |
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Post by domh245 on May 20, 2014 18:15:42 GMT
I hope it doesn't get changed again! Forgive the "bah, humbug" attitude but it's a dreadful waste of time and money. We should paint all the national rail stock in a unified livery and let the tocs put a small sticker in the corner! The Scottish have definitely got this bit right; everything is in "ScotRail" livery with a little bit of First branding. If/when the TOC changes the ScotRail livery remains and the First logo turns into something else. Yes I would agree that the constant livery system is a good thing. If that sort of thing could be rolled out en masse to the whole national rail network, it'll make things a whole lot simpler, particularly around the refranchising times. If they could even have a variation on a theme system, where they all have the same shape, but a different colour of said shape depending on the franchise, it'd be even better. Just my thoughts |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 20, 2014 18:58:13 GMT
Perhaps similar to how the original MetroTrain livery reflected the Regional Railways livery? Just look at the different versions of the 158 on this page. Mind you, perhaps this much of a repaint defeats the object of a standard livery? |
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Post by crusty54 on May 20, 2014 19:20:06 GMT
The reason for painting the trains was the graffiti outbreak. It was not possible to remove all the traces from the unpainted aluminium.
Painting the doors was a simple process.
The side indicators now show the line name and destination. No real need for line colours.
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Post by Chris W on May 20, 2014 19:41:09 GMT
I always liked the internal grab handles on the A stock that resembled the line they operated on... It's sad that most of the stock now have yellow handles... probably due to the need to give those with sight problems a chance to see them... Surely there's an argument for the need to apply a line relevant colour somewhere internally... in the case of the S7 units elements of pink and green... although I acknowledge that both colours maybe don't sit well against alongside one another...  |
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Post by wimblephil on May 20, 2014 19:52:17 GMT
The side indicators now show the line name and destination. No real need for line colours. Not great for a quick identification and confirmation of what train is in the platform though. Whilst I would agree it's not essential, I still think it's a good thing to have. Particulary good for people unfamiliar with the system to feel they are on the right train because the colour of it matches that of the line on the map; I was once at monument station where an S7 Stock was working the District, and overheard someone on the platform say "No, we can't get this one, as it's yellow. We need to wait for a green one"! |
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Post by Tomcakes on May 20, 2014 20:21:20 GMT
I recall that the idea to give each line coloured grab poles seemed to stop with the 95/96 for the Northern/Jubilee! Furthermore, the C stock and latterly S stock could not have a colour of its own in any case.
As to identities, a great amount of time is wasted by changing the logos etc of firms every so often. I believe that the latest ScotRail franchise included a commitment to using an agreed ScotRail "corporate identity" (as it is doubtless called), with a small panel for the private firm's logo. I think it telling that, over 20 years after privatisation, the railway brand with which an average member of the public is likely to be familiar is the double arrows and the BR name.
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Post by Chris W on May 20, 2014 20:30:18 GMT
I think it telling that, over 20 years after privatisation, the railway brand with which an average member of the public is likely to be familiar is the double arrows and the BR name. Just look outside most, if not all mainline rail stations, and the double arrow stands tall and proud !!! Without wishing to make this thread/post become political, nor to allow for thread drift.... given how outstanding the east coast has been back in public ownership... how I regret our railways being sold off... Back on track re LU livery now eh!!!  I for for one think the external LU livery will... and has... stood the test of time... 25 years on... |
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Post by brigham on May 20, 2014 20:38:24 GMT
... how I regret our railways being sold off... railways? Exactly how many railways did BR build, then? |
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Post by rincew1nd on May 20, 2014 20:56:51 GMT
I think it telling that, over 20 years after privatisation, the railway brand with which an average member of the public is likely to be familiar is the double arrows and the BR name. Just look outside most, if not all mainline rail stations, and the double arrow stands tall and proud !!![/quote]I think it has even made it into The Highway Code. Back on track re LU livery now eh!!! |
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 20, 2014 21:28:18 GMT
quote]Not great for a quick identification and confirmation of what train is in the platform though. I was going to say that you can't tell what colour the doors are when they're open, but then realised that you can, except on the three lines I use most often. |
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