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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 7:45:42 GMT
they should have a portable stop button, e.g. a red button on the side of the portable microphone used by the station assistant to dispatch the train. Pressing it would light up a stop signal inside the tunnel. that way, it could be used only at 'high risk' times, e.g. platform is very busy, and only activated by the station assistant, and wireless so the station assistant has it in his hand at all times. Why install a system that would only be available for a limited part of the working week, i.e. the peaks when SATS are on the platforms? By the time you'd gone through the development stage then undergone trials of the system and sorted out all the glitches the old 1973ts will have been replaced and the system would be redundant, simply money down the drain. As this sort of incident isn't a regular occurrence then it isn't a major problem and at a time when the Treasury are cutting TfL's budget I doubt if anyone is going to see an urgent need to put in any more safety measures than those currently in use.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 16, 2014 11:07:19 GMT
I'm not certain that a system whereby a departing driver can be shown a red light in the event of a platform incident would necessarily become redundant with new stock. Anything tunnel-mounted should in theory be usable with any stock that has a human at the front of the train who can stop it in the event of an emergency - not every incident is necessarily going to be spottable or appreciable on CCTV. As with everything though it comes down to an analysis of what safety benefits a system will provide, what (if any) side effects it will have and how much money it will cost to implement. We do not currently know any of the values, so it is not our place to make an assessment. However, it would surprise me if the cost of a system that jamesb describes would be massive - the basic technology (wirelessly switching on a light in response to the push of a button) could likely be bought off the shelf. An alternative would be the ability for a staff member on the platform to send an emergency stop message via the Connect radio (I recall something like this being discussed in the thread about the Holland Park incident last summer). This would not require new trackside infrastructure or the presence of a member of staff at the front of the train.
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Post by trt on Mar 16, 2014 13:58:57 GMT
If the platform cameras are next to useless as it's so busy... that's when you have SATs.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2014 0:31:42 GMT
I'm not certain that a system whereby a departing driver can be shown a red light in the event of a platform incident would necessarily become redundant with new stock. Anything tunnel-mounted should in theory be usable with any stock that has a human at the front of the train who can stop it in the event of an emergency - not every incident is necessarily going to be spottable or appreciable on CCTV. LUL's current thinking is that the Bakerloo will be driverless by 2033, they could introduce platform plungers. When its busy there's probably a better view on CCTV from looking down on the platform than a SATS gets at platform level. As with everything though it comes down to an analysis of what safety benefits a system will provide, what (if any) side effects it will have and how much money it will cost to implement. We do not currently know any of the values, so it is not our place to make an assessment. However, it would surprise me if the cost of a system that jamesb describes would be massive - the basic technology (wirelessly switching on a light in response to the push of a button) could likely be bought off the shelf. The PA equipment is "off the shelf" but a hand held device that combines PA with signal control isn't. Any new system would have to meet railway standards, would have to be tested and approved by ORR. Where would you place the light, would it have a tripcock and would passing it count as a SPAD? Once stopped how would you signal to the TOp that it was safe to proceed? I think it would be preferable to have in-cab CCTV if there is room in the 72s when they get their refurb than bringing in a totally new system. An alternative would be the ability for a staff member on the platform to send an emergency stop message via the Connect radio (I recall something like this being discussed in the thread about the Holland Park incident last summer). This would not require new trackside infrastructure or the presence of a member of staff at the front of the train. With Connect the stations are on their own channels, the trains on theirs and only the Line Controller can broadcast to everyone. There is an emergency button on all Connect radios that sends an alarm to the Line Controller, obviously by the time the station staff have relayed the message to the LC and the LC has contacted the train it would be far too late.
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Post by southfieldschris on Mar 17, 2014 11:14:29 GMT
A little part of me wonders if it wouldn't have been cheaper to continue to employ train guards by comparison with all the investment in equipment and processing power?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2014 11:51:36 GMT
A little part of me wonders if it wouldn't have been cheaper to continue to employ train guards by comparison with all the investment in equipment and processing power? I think that when the 72s and 73s were converted to OPO they modified the controls in the rear cab so that they couldn't function while the front cab was active, that modification would have to be reversed. LUL are trying to reduce staff rather than increase it so I don't think they're going to reintroduce guards on the two lines without in-cab CCTV. If this sort of incident were happening on a regular basis then LUL might examine their safety procedures but as it isn't they're not going to see the need to upgrade the current system of platform monitors and SATS with the additional expense.
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Post by southfieldschris on Mar 17, 2014 21:58:27 GMT
A little part of me wonders if it wouldn't have been cheaper to continue to employ train guards by comparison with all the investment in equipment and processing power? I think that when the 72s and 73s were converted to OPO they modified the controls in the rear cab so that they couldn't function while the front cab was active, that modification would have to be reversed. LUL are trying to reduce staff rather than increase it so I don't think they're going to reintroduce guards on the two lines without in-cab CCTV. If this sort of incident were happening on a regular basis then LUL might examine their safety procedures but as it isn't they're not going to see the need to upgrade the current system of platform monitors and SATS with the additional expense. I'm sure that's all true. I was just wondering if, when all the investment in technology is added up, if it were to be compared with the costs of employing humans over the same period of time, it wouldn't turn out to have been cheaper to have stuck with the humans. All too late now of course.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 0:36:38 GMT
TRT - there was one incident on the Piccadilly where a door came partially open between stations with a baby buggy next to it and the TOp hit the brakes as they'd lost the pilot light, then there was another where a woman put a pram with a baby in it on the train, the doors closed while she was fetching her luggage and the train went off. I've not heard of a buggy being dragged into a tunnel, I think that one would have made big waves. The majority of accidents on the Tube happen at the PTI, its been like that since I started, people just don't listen to "mind the gap" and charge at closing doors. The new Victoria line trains don't even have 'Mind the Doors' message anymore.. I complained to TfL and got this response. Now that I think of it the Central line trains don't seem to have them either- or drivers just don't use it!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 0:39:33 GMT
There have been numerous campaigns to try to alter passenger behaviour including taking care at the “passenger/train interface” to give it it’s official title; this is a fine example of how the money spent on those campaigns has been utterly wasted. Ooh, I don't know... Imagine if they hadn't had the campaign... there'd be one per door! Wasn't there a baby buggy got pulled into a tunnel a few years back? Did they make any recommendations then? What I saw at Harrow & Wealdstone is still imprinted on my mind to this day... And Blackpool sea front - I was four at the time, and I still get jittery around overheads. That's why the most exposure in the press of the potentially horrific consequences of this is welcome. What did you see at H&W or Blackpool if you don't mind saying. I know H&W isn't that safe if you aren't aware that fast trains run non-stop adjacent to stopping platforms
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 5:46:05 GMT
The new Victoria line trains don't even have 'Mind the Doors' message anymore.. I complained to TfL and got this response (http://londona729.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/ever-wondered-why-new-victoria-line.html). Know that I think of it the Central line trains don't seem to have them either- or drivers just don't use it! We don't have a "mind the doors" message on the 1992 stock, just the warning chimes before the doors close. All the warnings are automatically triggered by pressing the "doors close" buttons in the cab but we do make "mind the doors" announcements over the PA at specified locations or if the driver considers it necessary.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 6, 2014 10:35:07 GMT
I know H&W isn't that safe if you aren't aware that fast trains run non-stop adjacent to stopping platforms A similar situation to Wimbledon, where they are now erecting fences to segregate the fast line platforms (with gates to allow access on the rare occasions trains stop there).
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Post by trt on Apr 6, 2014 13:58:11 GMT
Ooh, I don't know... Imagine if they hadn't had the campaign... there'd be one per door! Wasn't there a baby buggy got pulled into a tunnel a few years back? Did they make any recommendations then? What I saw at Harrow & Wealdstone is still imprinted on my mind to this day... And Blackpool sea front - I was four at the time, and I still get jittery around overheads. That's why the most exposure in the press of the potentially horrific consequences of this is welcome. What did you see at H&W or Blackpool if you don't mind saying. I know H&W isn't that safe if you aren't aware that fast trains run non-stop adjacent to stopping platforms It's a rule of the forum that we do not talk about details of these things here. I think. Isn't it?
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 6, 2014 14:41:36 GMT
Yes. Full details regarding incidents are in the forum rules.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 16:12:53 GMT
What did you see at H&W or Blackpool if you don't mind saying. I know H&W isn't that safe if you aren't aware that fast trains run non-stop adjacent to stopping platforms It's a rule of the forum that we do not talk about details of these things here. I think. Isn't it? Oh ok, my apologies.
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Post by andypurk on Apr 6, 2014 19:43:56 GMT
I know H&W isn't that safe if you aren't aware that fast trains run non-stop adjacent to stopping platforms A similar situation to Wimbledon, where they are now erecting fences to segregate the fast line platforms (with gates to allow access on the rare occasions trains stop there). The fast line fencing, at Harrow & Wealdstone, has been up for a long time now and apparently does its job with reported incidents reduced a lot.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 22:30:26 GMT
A similar situation to Wimbledon, where they are now erecting fences to segregate the fast line platforms (with gates to allow access on the rare occasions trains stop there). The fast line fencing, at Harrow & Wealdstone, has been up for a long time now and apparently does its job with reported incidents reduced a lot. I haven't been there for about 2 years now so the situation may have changed! However I once got quite a fright when one sped past rather unexpectedly!
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