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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2013 11:49:44 GMT
I've just got a copy of the "Northern Line Extensions" book from the LT Museum shop for Christmas and having read the book there is one thing that I still don't understand.
For the Northern Heights line from Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace via Highgate etc, what were the platform arrangements for trains on that line? Did they use the east end platforms at Finsbury Park or the two outer platforms?
I understand as well that dedicated platforms were to be built on the east side but were never completed.
Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks!
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 25, 2013 14:16:14 GMT
There were going to be sseparate platforms and the LPTB line would cross over the main line on a long bridge.
Look at the diagrams.
Glad there's still copies of it around (I'm one of the authors).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2013 14:19:39 GMT
You got there first M !! Happy Christmas to you and Han.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 25, 2013 15:03:42 GMT
When the Highgate line was in use, there was a flying junction north of Finsbury Park to allow trains from the Highgate direction to reach the up slow. The western edge of Finsbury Park (the Park itself) still follows the curve of the descent ramp. Northbound there is still a slight kink on the down slow at the point where the Highgate branch turned off.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2013 15:58:33 GMT
I understood about the flying junction I just wasn't sure about the platform arrangement but after thinking about it and looking at the diagrams again it makes more sense. Thank you!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 9:24:07 GMT
The western edge of Finsbury Park (the Park itself) still follows the curve of the descent ramp. Northbound there is still a slight kink on the down slow at the point where the Highgate branch turned off. From aerial views, it looks as if this area has been reclaimed by the park, with tennis courts and grass now occupying the formation; the western road within the park still has a considerable curve, however! |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 26, 2013 9:37:47 GMT
The western edge of Finsbury Park (the Park itself) still follows the curve of the descent ramp. From aerial views, it looks as if this area has been reclaimed by the park, with tennis courts and grass now occupying the formation; the western road within the park still has a considerable curve, however! I don't think the curve was that wide. Older maps show a wide space between that curved western road and the ramp. Between the tennis courts and the present formation is a narrow crescent-shaped wooded area: I thought that was the ramp. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 26, 2013 9:44:06 GMT
Older maps show a wide space between that curved western road and the ramp. Between the tennis courts and the present formation is a narrow crescent-shaped wooded area: I thought that was the ramp. Bear with me, as it will take quite a bit of fiddling around in the background to sort out the image and hosting it, but I will put up the appropriate civils survey from 1944 of that bit of line. |
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Post by John Tuthill on Dec 26, 2013 10:08:48 GMT
Older maps show a wide space between that curved western road and the ramp. Between the tennis courts and the present formation is a narrow crescent-shaped wooded area: I thought that was the ramp. Bear with me, as it will take quite a bit of fiddling around in the background to sort out the image and hosting it, but I will put up the appropriate civils survey from 1944 of that bit of line. Check out the "Closed Stations" web site. It shows photos of the platform locations and maps of Finsbury Park. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 26, 2013 10:43:07 GMT
Try this link - feel free to use the zoom and wait for the image to render on the screen. Drayton Park is to the left and Stroud Green to the right - the bit after the long bridge has been inverted relative to how it was printed. |
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Dec 26, 2013 13:31:52 GMT
I was interested to see on M's link,the presence of the footbridge between the Park and Oxford Road.
The first time I visited the area was after the GN Electrification (mid 70s),and it struck me that there was very little vertical space between the rails of the ECML at this point,and the rails of the Northern Heights Line over the line of the footpath...and so I assumed (wrongly,it seems)the footpath was put in after the NH line was severed.
Was the earlier footbridge built with less clearance over the ECML (and has been raised) or were there steps between the NH overbridge and the ECML underbridge?
Does anyone have any photos?
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Post by orienteer on Dec 26, 2013 13:48:05 GMT
Standing by the footbridge/tennis courts was a favourite trainspotting point for me and friends in the 1950s, but can't recall much about it, except the footbridge was quite low relative to the park.
The Heights branch was still used for freight I think.
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Dec 29, 2013 20:43:42 GMT
I've got a nice cine clip of Flying Scotsman going under that bridge in about 1968 when it done the non-stop from KX to Edinburgh!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2014 8:56:48 GMT
Hopefully related question, does anyone know of any photos in existence of the underground platforms at Finsbury Park when they were used by the Northern City Line?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 3, 2014 9:33:26 GMT
I think there are some in the LTM collection
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Post by sawb on Jan 3, 2014 18:57:08 GMT
Hopefully related question, does anyone know of any photos in existence of the underground platforms at Finsbury Park when they were used by the Northern City Line? Have you tried the museum online photographic collection? www.ltmcollection.org/photos/index.html |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2014 21:41:30 GMT
Actually sawb I never considered that. Thankfully I found what I was looking for there:
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 5, 2014 11:10:18 GMT
Actually sawb I never considered that. Thankfully I found what I was looking for there: Are you sure about that? They look like the Picc. platforms - I'd need to dig around a bit, but I'm 90% that there wasn't a gradient change in the station tunnel on the GN&C platforms. EDIT: there are other clues - such as the style of the illuminated sign and use of the Victoria Line - these can't be GN&C, as the rounded aluminium-ish signs didn't come in until/with the Vic. |
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Post by crusty54 on Jan 5, 2014 11:53:13 GMT
It shouldn't be forgotten that the Victoria line took over existing infrastructure.
As stated in David Connor's Tribute to the Victoria Line
FINSBURY PARK - Uses former Edwardian GNPBR and GNCR platform tunnels
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 5, 2014 11:58:43 GMT
It shouldn't be forgotten that the Victoria line took over existing infrastructure. As stated in David Connor's Tribute to the Victoria Line FINSBURY PARK - Uses former Edwardian GNPBR and GNCR platform tunnels Indeed - but the photos appear not to be of GN&C days, or of the GN&C line. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 16:28:34 GMT
These pictures are of the Piccadilly Line platforms in the late 1960s or early 1970s. I have been (and still am!) a very regular user of Finsbury Park since 1961! The GN&CR platforms were taken over by the Southbound Piccadilly & Victoria Lines and the old Piccadilly platforms by the Northbound services. I would say that that the second picture is the south end of the (new) Piccadilly southbound platform judging by the exit (on the right as you view the picture) from the platform which was constructed about a year or so after the Victoria Line opened. Prior to this there was only one staircase down to the (old) GN&CR platforms from the Station Place entrance passage. There was of course, always the spiral stairs (and ex lifts) up to the BR (ex LNER) part of the station. Picture 3 is the northbound Piccadilly platform (as it always was!). I would say Picture 4 is also the northbound Piccadilly. Looking again at Picture 1 I am pretty sure that is the (new) southbound (ex GN&CR) Piccadilly platform looking south from the northern tunnel portal.
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Post by superteacher on Jan 5, 2014 17:34:36 GMT
Before my time, but I am sure that those platforms had tungsten lighting when used by the Northern City. Flourescent lighting only appeared when the Vic was opened. Another clue is the provision of the destination indicator. I doubt that these were used in Northern City days, as all trains went to Moorgate.
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Post by abe on Jan 6, 2014 20:41:59 GMT
The GN&CR platforms were built by the GNR, under the GNR No. 2 Act of 1902. The No. 1 Act of 1902 was for the parallel Great Northern & Strand Railway, which became the northern section of the original Piccadilly tube. By building both sets of platforms itself, the GNR felt it had more power to prevent either line from extending northwards and stealing its suburban traffic.
The platforms were constructed to be very similar, with the exception of the greater diameter required for the GN&CR. All four were constructed on a 'hump' profile, for reasons that have never been fully explained. At the southern end it would assist trains in decelerating into the station and accelerating away, but with no intention to extend northwards, why the descent at the northern ends?
As stated by others previously, the southbound Great Northern and westbound Piccadilly lines now use the GN&CR platforms, and the hump can still be seen on them. The earliest view I can find that shows the humped profile is on p72 of Rails Through the Clay, taken around the time of opening in 1904.
Changes were made to the décor and fittings of all the platforms when the Victoria line opened, and the photos shown earlier date from this era as said in earlier posts.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 7, 2014 7:55:43 GMT
What happened to the solid roundel? Presumably it was considered heritage enough to keep it through the rebuild?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 19:47:00 GMT
Hello, I am new to the site, but I am very interested in the conversation about Finsbury Park Station as I am currently undertaking a lot of research in to it for work (within LU). The best way to identify which platforms the photos are is, is to look at the tunnel headwall and see what the diameter of the tunnel mouth is. My guess is these are the Piccadilly platforms. Now talking about the Piccadilly platforms, as I said I am currently researching certain aspects of Finsbury Park Piccadilly station, as the question has arisen as to why there is a 25 ft dia tunnel at the northern end of the northbound Picc. platform tunnel, the construction of which has created a very odd tunnel mouth. This tunnel is only about a carriage length in distance and has a circular mouth directly adjacent to the northbound tunnel. Both tunnel mouths constructed of brick. the way it has been constructed is so that it is essentially the mirror of the station tunnel Now the question is, does anyone know why it is there and what its purpose was? Any ideas, no matter how weird, because mine could be seen as being so! There is much debate in the office about this and my theory, which I shall not share for the time being, is being poopooed, however, I have all of the evidence supporting my theory and have not seen anything to disprove it yet! What we know is: - the Bakerloo and the C&SLR both carried some form of goods traffic at and around the same time as my suggestion that the GNPBR may have been intended to or did carry a certain type of traffic
- a railway was constructed to carry parcel traffic across London, not many years later
- Finsbury Park was THE London depot for a certain type of GNR traffic and dealt with thousands of measures of it per day
- there was a need for ease of movement of GNR delivered perishable goods
- there was massive traffic congestion in the city limiting the option of delivering these over long distances through the city by road
- the approaches to Kings Cross were congested with existing rail traffic, prohibiting use by many more freight trains and even if there was, it potentially put them in the wrong place, without time consuming shunting
- the GNR built the tube stations at Finsbury Park
- we are talking about tunnels constructed under the 1902 legislation, not GN&SR legislation
- the drawings for the GNPBR act clearly identified sidings, which were never constructed, so the 25' dia. tunnel could be for a siding, that was never built, but it was presumably for the headhunt (the limits of deviation seeming to follow the same alignment as the proposed headhunt), which was included in the legislation, along with the southern crossover, making the headhunt superfluous, hence its never being constructed
- the GNR constructed tube station was always intended to be the terminus of the GNPBR enforced by legislation
- that the tube railways were losing money hand over fist and needed to increase revenue AND there was no reason why they could not carry goods of some sort, why shouldn't they? there was nothing stopping them!
- the drawings very clearly identify the tunnel being solely under the footprint of a transfer shed
- the 25' tunnel is more atypical of a platform tunnel than comparable junction tunnels ON the GNPBR, within half mile and also built at the same time!
Now, take from that what you will, but if anyone can help that I would be very interested to hear your thoughts an observations. I shall certainly update everyone when I have read the 1902 act and if it says anything! hopefully that will be tomorrow. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 19:49:56 GMT
By the way, when the main line was widened in the thirties to accommodate the trains to Ally Pally, the transfer shed was wholly or partially demolished. However, when the BTP station was constructed in the 80s it seems another wooden shed had been erected on the site. The 1930s work may have seen the backfilling of a shaft down to track level...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 20:02:44 GMT
Looking at the tunnel profiles, it looks as if the top two pictures are of the original GN&CR platforms and the bottom two, the original Piccadillly line platforms. Actually sawb I never considered that. Thankfully I found what I was looking for there:
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Post by tjw on Jan 7, 2014 20:12:00 GMT
It may be worth reading the company board minutes if you can find them, this sort of resource has been very useful to some of us in the past with regard railway carriage restoration. They may also be of use to those interested in Civil's.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 20:26:45 GMT
Ah, stationless, I think you are exactly right! the top two are the GNCR tunnels, you can see how they are larger diameter by the location of the power rail in relation to the wall.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 20:27:56 GMT
Hello tjw, meeting minutes are on the cards for next week  I am dying to know what the tunnel was for. It is something of a mystery! |
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