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Post by jamesb on Nov 14, 2013 19:42:34 GMT
The passenger alarms on the central line now have covers over the passenger alarm. There is a notice explaining how to get assistance from staff, which discourages use of the alarm in favour of seeking assistance from staff on the platform - to use the alarm only in 'emergency'. It also states that there is a penalty for misuse.
Is the removal of the 'in case of emergency' sticker next to the alarm, replacing it with a notice encouraging passengers to seek assistance from platform staff, a step too far?
I recall a 'genuine' emergency, at Chancery Lane, where no passenger alarm was operated despite the train making unusual noises from as far back as Leytonstone. Had a passenger operated the alarm sooner, maybe the train would have been taken out of service sooner? Probably still would have derailed, but at least it might have been empty?
Would a genuine passenger in a genuine emergency get put off by the warning of a penalty for deliberate misuse? Take a suspect package for example...
The covers are a good idea, but the new signage to go with them seems different on the Central Line to other lines...
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 14, 2013 19:51:34 GMT
There used to be an actual penalty shown on the sign
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Post by domh245 on Nov 14, 2013 20:12:24 GMT
I feel that those posters which they have about suspicious packages which they display in the train could be improved by having more or less the same art, but could be captioned: "This is an emergency" or something along those lines. These posters showing different emergencies could be then displayed in the usual advertisement slots above the doors where alarms are. That way people will feel less concerned about pulling the lever if there is some sort of information provided to them about what merits an emergency.
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hobbayne
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Post by hobbayne on Nov 14, 2013 22:36:59 GMT
A group of passengers runing to catch a train that is about to leave with the doors nearly closed. Passenger A makes it on before the doors close, passenger B does not. Passenger A pulls the handle. There is your "Emergency"
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Post by jamesb on Nov 14, 2013 22:57:21 GMT
A group of passengers runing to catch a train that is about to leave with the doors nearly closed. Passenger A makes it on before the doors close, passenger B does not. Passenger A pulls the handle. There is your "Emergency" Sure, but for people like this, a sign threatening a penalty fare isn't going to make much difference. (the cover might, if the person isn't intelligent enough to work out how to lift the flap!). So what ARE you supposed to pull the alarm handle for? Does any emergency justify it's use? Why have them at all then? The train will continue to the next station regardless. so even if somebody is collapsed or has a cardiac arrest pulling the alarm won't make a difference to how fast they reach the station. And people can get off and shout for help once they reach the station or activate a help point on the platform. |
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 14, 2013 23:34:26 GMT
There are signs next to the maps that state that help is more easily given at the platform
In addition there are markers that show drivers how many cars are in the platform when leaving the station
This and the intercom from the point where the handle is pulled mean that the driver can assess the situation
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castlebar
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Posts: 1,316
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Post by castlebar on Nov 15, 2013 13:47:16 GMT
If one has to read the accompanying notice first, then consider as to whether one might be fined or not for activating the alarm, I would suggest that it probably is not an emergency.
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 16, 2013 0:19:58 GMT
That is one reason why pulling the handle no longer stops the train.
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Post by jamesb on Nov 16, 2013 7:10:03 GMT
There is a timer I think , for 17 seconds or something, which does automatically stop the train if the handle is pulled when the train is pulling out of the station.
The only life saving potential as far as I can see is if somebody gets pulled along or falls under the train, and the handle is pulled.
The covers have definitely smartened up the alarms, many of which were starting to look a bit tatty.
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Post by nickf on Nov 16, 2013 9:12:13 GMT
Page 53 onwards of this RAIB report linkgives some interesting information on alarm handle covers. |
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Post by jamesb on Nov 16, 2013 13:07:12 GMT
Page 53 onwards of this RAIB report linkgives some interesting information on alarm handle covers. Interesting. Pages 53 to 57 refer to alarm covers which were ultimately removed from this fleet of trains. The one occasion I saw an alarm operated in a genuine emergency was on a Southern train when a passenger had fallen on the tracks in the platform. Another passenger ran onto the train and started punching the cover in an attempt to push the button. Eventually he lifted the plastic flap. This demonstrated that passenger's react in odd and unpredictable ways in a real emergency. The adrenaline is pumping. In a packed central line train in rush hour, it's hard enough to reach a handle as it is. With people pressed against the walls there isnt much room to move your head let alone open a flap. Seconds would count if someone was getting dragged along or had fallen down the platform train gap. packed train plus unintelligent panicking passenger plus seconds spent trying to smash the viewing window or faffing around with the flap or moving someone to allow the flap to be opened could easily result in the train not stopping in time. In my opinion! |
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Post by plasmid on Nov 24, 2013 22:18:44 GMT
I was wondering if this would ever happen, most days of the week trains are held in the platforms in the morning because of an activated PEA for whatever reason, hopefully this reduces the amount of PEA's successfully.
As a regular commuted I've seen most of the flaps/sliders etc. and they all look basic to operate. Adrenaline may delay you from activating the PEA successfully but you can't excuse the stupid. The video of the 92ts incident this year from the Notting Hill carnival is a classic of how incompetent youngsters are in this day and age.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Nov 24, 2013 23:08:32 GMT
The video from Notting Hill does quite early on show someone hitting the platform emergency stop, and then again and again. I'm not going to start speculating as to why they felt the need to repeat the same action over and over again.
With the very old alarms if you pulled it there was a rush of air and the train stopped, so you made sure you didn't pull it; now you press a button and nothing happens.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Nov 25, 2013 0:15:31 GMT
The video from Notting Hill does quite early on show someone hitting the platform emergency stop, and then again and again. I'm not going to start speculating as to why they felt the need to repeat the same action over and over again. You've answered your own question: now you press a button and nothing happens. When someone is in a situation they perceive (rightly or wrongly) as an emergency that requires immediate action, they want instant responsiveness. Ideally instant action, but at the very least instant acknowledgement. We've all encountered technology that doesn't work until you've pushed the button a few times, and with no visible indication as to whether it has worked or not trying again is exactly what people will do. It was likely a very noisy environment so they may not have heard the ringing or whatever, even if the adrenaline wasn't prioritising other things over listening. Rememebr also that they will have no knowledge and almost certainly no experience of how the system is intended to work. Even if they do have experience of something similar it is unlikely to be the same, given no standards exist (afaia). I'm reminded of a report into a level crossing accident (I can't remember which one) where a passing policeman failed to notify the signallers of an obstruction because he couldn't in an emergency get the phone to work. He was trying to operate it like the motorway emergency phones with which he was familiar but it was designed differently. Adrenaline may delay you from activating the PEA successfully but you can't excuse the stupid. The video of the 92ts incident this year from the Notting Hill carnival is a classic of how incompetent youngsters are in this day and age. No. The video of the 92ts incident is a classic example of how panicking people do not act rationally. In the absence of someone clearly taking control most people will run around like headless chickens trying to find a way to flee the danger. The adrenaline literally gets between them and their brains - this is a good thing in situations where you need to act fast and decisively because your conscious brain too slow. This is why people train over and over for emergencies, so that when the situation happens the correct course of action is instinctive. In the Notting Hill Gate incident there was nobody there to take control of the situation. The last bullet point of my post in the initial thread about the incident goes into a little more detail about this and one idea (of unknown quality) for addressing the issue. |
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