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Post by malcolmffc on Oct 15, 2013 8:09:43 GMT
Excluding WImbelware, which is clearly infeasible north of Earl's Court, how many stations/platforms would need to be extended for the District to be able to run S8 stock? Is it ever likely to happen?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 15, 2013 9:50:36 GMT
Very few would be able to accept S8s.
Already SDO is being used on S7s at Monument, Cannon Street, Temple, Sloane Square and to be at West Kensington, Parsons Green, Ealing Common.
If platform barriers were moved perhaps Upminster-Stepney Green, Aldgate East, Tower Hill, Embankment, Westminster, St James's Park, South Kensington, East Putney, Southfields, Wimbledon Park, Wimbledon would be the only ones.
Then you have the problem of terminals; Richmond. Ealing Broadway and all the stabling sidings and depots.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 15, 2013 11:18:09 GMT
Its a complex answer, especially while there are C and D stock trains running. A *lot* of money was spent in the 50s, 60s and 70s to physically lengthen platforms on the south Circle to take 8 car trains, albeit with end doors cut out. Momument and Cannon Streets platforms are (or were) around 120m, or 393 feet, for example. An 8 car CO/CP formation was about 416' long, and the distance between the inner double doors on the outermost cars and the end of the car was about 33'. An 8 car S Stock formation is longer; ~127.5m, and the distance from end of carriage to second set of double doors about 8.7m.
But, as I understand it, the limitations aren't the physical length of platforms, but the platform furniture, stopping marks and signal positions. If you got rid of the end barriers and CCTV monitors, and moved the stopping marks forward, resiting the signals as necessary, you'd end up with a lot more space. But that can only be done when the resignalling is done, and all trains running have in cab CCTV. Or a guard :X
I'd very much like to see the documents relating to the decision not to run S8s on some District services! Would be quite revealing to compare the fears and attitude to that of bygone decades and organisations.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2013 7:36:54 GMT
Do you know why St James's Park has such long platforms? Was it planned to lengthen those south Circle platforms even further?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 18, 2013 9:27:36 GMT
The District Line provided 8-car trains in peak-hours until uncoupling was abandoned.
Some stations were lengthened in substantial form, such as St James's Park, Embankment, Tower Hill, Aldgate East - others just had wooden walkboards attached to the tunnel wall to provide minimal facilities.
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metman
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Post by metman on Oct 18, 2013 16:06:53 GMT
Also as stated elsewhere, the older District stock was much shorter on a car for car basis than the S stock. The F and H stock were the shortest and the Q stock wasn't much over 50ft. The CO/CP and R stock were about 51ft.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 18, 2013 16:35:21 GMT
C Stock DMs translate to: 52.5' , T : 49' .
S Stock DMs to: 57.5' , all others: 50.5' .
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 19, 2013 1:24:38 GMT
One other point on top of the car lengths is the position of doors on the cars. Flare-sided stock had their doors more towards the ends of the car than later stocks.
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metman
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Post by metman on Oct 19, 2013 9:47:56 GMT
This is true of the CO/CP, Q38 and R38 cars but not off course of the R47/49/59 cars. The Q23 and Q27 cars also had the doors closer to the cabs to make up for the lack of end doors available to the public. These cars were far shorter than the S stock however.
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Post by revupminster on Oct 19, 2013 10:04:10 GMT
I would certainly like the S8 to be able to travel between Aldgate East and Upminster so that when West Ham United get to Wembley (fantasy unless its the playoff final) They can run through trains as they did in olden days (1970's).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2013 13:51:17 GMT
In relation to station lengths - perhaps with walk through carriages, the issue of having (say) one carriage entirely in the tunnel should no longer matter. Assuming of course all doors on that car could be cut out.
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Post by domh245 on Oct 19, 2013 14:08:24 GMT
Yes, whilst being able to cut out a carriage of doors is possible (most places on the High Street Kensington to Edgware Road Branch), to do near enough an entire journey where at least a car's worth of doors are cut out would be rather bad for the passengers in the car where the doors wouldn't open (particularly if it is rush hour), the timetable (longer dwell times to let everyone out) as well as the passengers who are in a middle car and hear after nearly every announcement "The front X doors will not open. Passengers in the front cars should move towards the rear of the train to exit"
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 19, 2013 16:08:21 GMT
This is true of the CO/CP, Q38 and R38 cars but not off course of the R47/49/59 cars. Well it is, but not to the same extent  If they were perfectly spaced they would presumably occupy 1/3 and 2/3 positions, with the ends covered by single doors or cabs |
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Post by crusty54 on Oct 19, 2013 17:03:23 GMT
In relation to station lengths - perhaps with walk through carriages, the issue of having (say) one carriage entirely in the tunnel should no longer matter. Assuming of course all doors on that car could be cut out. this already happens with the rear car of an S7 on the eastbound at Baker Street. It is a long walk and would cause delay if it wasn't for the length of time the trains are held there waiting for the Aldgate S8s. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2013 20:09:09 GMT
as well as the passengers who are in a middle car and hear after nearly every announcement "The front X doors will not open. Passengers in the front cars should move towards the rear of the train to exit" I believe that S stock trains only play those in the section of the train where it applies - the rest of the train is quiet. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 20, 2013 1:40:02 GMT
Thats correct I think. Its an odd experience being in the second car and hearing it through the gangway.
A quick check reveals most of the platforms on the south circle are about 10-23m short of an S8, so ~110-123m? That would were it not for stopping positions imply at least front and rear double doors closed and at most two sets front and rear. Wimbledon would seem to be physically capable of taking S8's, as would the Upminster line, sans the terminal bays. Ealing doesnt look good as is.
I'm really hoping that when the new signalling comes out, passive provision will be made for S8's on the parts of the District that can take them, say Wimbledon - Upminster. With most platforms physically longer than 7 cars, the wasted capital expenditure to get them to that state represents a lot of lost passenger capacity when combined.
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Post by crusty54 on Oct 20, 2013 11:22:36 GMT
Once the new signalling is installed and the power supply uprated it will be possible to run a more frequent service with the S7s. Having some longer trains would ruin the scheme to get all District Line trains of the same length and keep things simple.
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If they were perfectly spaced they would presumably occupy 1/3 and 2/3 positions, with the ends covered by single doors or cabs
