Thameslink prototype stock?

dw54 - yes, it's complete and utter rubbish! Siemens haven't even reached financial close yet (and if DfT don't hurry up with sorting this out, there won't be any new stock for the grand TLK opening...). I would guess that even if Siemens were to sign tomorrow, there won't be any prototypes to test until well into 2014.

Graham h

Building a couple of vehicles* is not quite the same as running a prototype set in service - all manufacturers agree that you need about six months to iron out the bugs: typically, such things as the behaviour of the software, actual ( as opposed to predicted) maintenance profiles, driving techniques, and so on. A couple of vehicles will tell you little except whether the seating layout and the doors work - although, admittedly, doors have usually been most new builds Achilles' heel (can't understand why, as these are a well-known and tried feature...). (Cf Met 17000).

G

* Do you have the reference for this - the trade press seems to have overlooked it - perhaps they are quietly lurking at Wildenrath?

They must be desperate if so, as they haven't actually got the deal yet - perhaps they've modified some existing kit to try out the concepts. Then again, one source, noted and queried by dw54, reported emphatically that the deal had been closed some time ago and Siemens were testing prototype units; if the first of those comments was untrue, which it is, then not much faith could be put in the second, particularly as there was no other corroboration. Meanwhile, Siemens is presumably leaking cash like a sieve on the deal as they will be having to pay banking advisers and lawyers all day long - a year's delay could easily have cost them the thick end of £10m. Building an entire 8 car set (which would be essential to test the software) would cost another £10m or probably twice as much of the contract is never closed.

As a ploy to save time, it really won't count for much - the crunch issues will come with the interface between the train software and NR's signalling, and in the reliability of the ATO equipment, neither of which can be tested other than in the UK. There is also a contractual obligation for the "First Train" to accumulate some reasonable mileage in service before acceptance of the fleet begins - something else that requires the said train to be in the UK and running round the Hertford Loop for a bit... But - no contract - no NR acceptance - no serious trialling until...

GH

Thanks Nick. That clarifies the nonsense on the e-zine. My word, the 313 has been a useful workhorse over its time!

There's a test unit running around now but its not a fully equipped unit. I cannot talk further about it but the above posters are wrong.

I can say however there a press day planned shortly for it.

Graham I'm afraid is very ill informed and not part of the project so his information is not at all correct. (See the class 345 thread for further examples). He also forgets that Siemens have spend 50m Euro's developing the Desiro City order.

Nick, there is a reason why they haven't reported it yet but can't give more details. They won't know its a TL unit.

What I can say if those travelling past the two depot sites will see how Siemens is already building both depots with the main structure up at both locations and work starting on secondary buildings in support of train introduction with secondary sites also in a state to accommodate fleet introduction over the next few years. That's an fact as any traveler will be about to tell you.

Setting aside the boorishness of it all, fleetline does in fact merely repeat what Siemens said in its October 2012 press release. That was the same press release that stated that they hoped for financial close by Christmas 2012 and had spent the said 50m on development. We all await the promised further press notice with attention.

Not sure Fleetline just who's wrong, apart from your skirmish with Graham. So permit me to set out the various assertions and if you could kindly dismiss those that are wrong:

1) The 313 ATO test unit, just about ready to start work;
2) Siemens' prototype SF7000 bogies - for their proposed Desiro City range - of which the 700 class is but one prospective build;
3) Siemens to test the SF7000 bogies under existing vehicles at their test track (Wildenrath), to accumulate milage;
4) TL trains in acceptance testing from 2011 (I think this is baloney, IMHO)
5) Batch deliveries commenced in 2012 (if so, we're all blind; or the Emperor is slendidly attired)
6) The Emperor is DaFT. (Sorry, that's my trick question!!  )
7) There's some sort of prototype TL unit running in the UK right now, but it's not obvious that it's for TL. Perhaps has the Desiro City traction and control package in modified "pre-loved" vehicles?

As Moderators have been kind enough to indicate that you have fingers in various pies, perhaps you could help me out with information on the kinematic envelope for TL. In particular, the core is listed as having gauge clearance SPL, which means "special." RSSB tell me the lowest OHLE in Britain is 3925mm arl. What is it about the TL core that means it has less clearance than W6a?

1) the 313 has already been shown off a few months ago. Last I heard it was almost finished but haven't been keeping full attention on it.
2) That's correct.
3) Currently the bogies are being tested.
4) Well seeing as that's based on the 2008 DfT timeline when they didn't even get to final bidder until 2011 means its out dated info. Currently not public what the timeline is.
5) see above.
6)
7) false. Sort of. The class 380 actually contain parts of the Desiro City design, fly by wires, new bodyshell, which will feedback into the class 700 build. However I never said where it was based, simply that it exists and no they aren't pre loved but new.

To be honest I believe the wires at City Thameslink at both ends are part of the restriction with the u shape nature of the station means track and wires get close. There's some weird restrictions in Core. 375 are barred north of Blackfriars but 10 car 376 are permitted as far as Smithfield sidings. And no, I haven't a clue why.

Really? I'm afraid your posts don't actually agree with your post above.



Where is this claim in the link? Or is this a personal claim you have?

As for dates of testing, I'm not allowed to talk about that but there is a timeline of units coming on stream.



Fact they are considered by the industry to be a major performance risk? That was the basis of the 378 and 700 having sliding doors rather than plugs. From your claims to have been connected to their eailer stages of the project, I'd have thought you'd have know this.

If you ever read Rail (admittedly not trade press) issue 722 you'd have seen them talking about this (I'd actually forgotten about it).

"The two pre-series vehicles are equipped with instruments to record performance as they are hauled around the test track. Siemens have also identified suppliers for components of the trains, and placed orders for them. It has also built two mock up vehicles".

Of course Rail is know for issues with reporting but I can confirm this is true.



I will quote you on this one in case you fear me putting words into your mouth again.



As for your claims that the acceptance testing must all be done on the Hertford is again wrong information. The initial mileage will be done at Wildenrath with the initial two variants of either unit configuration (one being 12 car and other is 8 cars) doing the acceptance testing, but there is a timetable already in place for the testing. Once the first two units come tonthe UK here will be testing on the routes the trains will run but its wrong to state they have to do this on the Hertford loop as that's only for the ATO testing. The initial phase is focused on replacing the remaining 319's and the 377 fleets on Thameslink with ATO testing taking place later on the loop using units commissioned out of Hornsey depot. Don't forget Hertford is test track for ATO system that won't go live until 2017, (that the ATO system on Thameslink not the test track to make sure your understanding me). The full fleet replacement on TL is due to be completed way before that (, for starters all 319's are to be gone by mid 2016 at the latest).

I do find it odd that you believe £10m is something that could affect a 30 year+ multi-billion pound contract after they have already spent 50m Euro's in just developing a train for possible orders. Siemens have shown willingness to invest in their new designs in order for them to offer a better train. This simple fact seems to have past you by.

Hopefully this Chief Priest can phainein and interpret these mysteries for you to understand better? Hopefully with less acerbus comments.

slugabed - you are right and your rebuke is as elegant as it is to the point. If I have offended with rudeness, I apologise unreservedly.

GH

...... for everything posted ............

Thanks for all that.

--
Nick

DW54, the entire class was build with the 23m of the Desiro City shell and fly by wires. Think of it as a Desiro 1.5, its a refinement of the Desiro UK design with Desiro Cities partial upgrade. The introduction of the 380s will feed into the 700 fleet introduction. Bombardier did a similar thing with the 379 fleet.

While not being able to complete be definite on this issue as I’m not a rolling stock engineer but I don’t believe the 380 can be used for the same kinetic envelope. The different car lengths along with completely different cab ends means there are significant different between the two fleets. Note as well the 380 are actually Desiro City v0.5 than v1.0. The class 700 fleet will be the first true Desiro City with the 380 being an upgraded Desiro UK.

Hopefully that makes sense.



My understanding is greater than I can comment on. There is a draft 2018 KO2 timetable partly written but last update I got was there were some refinements that were require but there are differences on the GN from what was previously announced. However the class 700 is not expected to run any services around the Hertford loop or into Moorgate. They will be of course cleared for the loop especially for the ATO testing.

The Desiro City was build around the concept of single car meaning you can build any length from 3 to 12 cars. For a 6 car you’d have;

M+T+M+T+T+M

Part of the TRSP spec was actually for the new trains to be reconfigurable from 8/12 cars to 10 in either Hornsey or Three Bridges depot. There’s no reason why they can’t be made into a six car if the wanted too.



My opinion on this is that using the 313 to do seven car SDO isn’t going to happen. The 700’s won’t be operating in full until Dec 2018 when the ATO goes live and you can run 24tph through the Core. While London Bridge rebuild need to open before the Core frequency can go above 16ph. Early 2018 will see 20tph with 4tph from the GN.

Because of this you won’t get enough time to do the work on the 313’s as they are expected to be replaced in the proper franchise starting in the early 2020’s. As for SDO, would be questionable if this would be allowed as Moorgate would add a risk factor if SDO is used. Any station where trains terminate they need to have all doors in platform as otherwise you’d have a pinch point that means slower alighting and boarding which means longer dwell times.

Longer term Crossrail 2 has the ability to help reduce the strain on the NCL so major works like extending platforms may not be needed. Especially if any rolling stock is configured like the 378’s.