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Post by snoggle on Jan 17, 2013 23:56:42 GMT
In advance of a Finance and Policy Committee meeting TfL have published a submission paper for authority to progress 5 car trains and associated works for the Overground network. There are no financial numbers in the published paper. These will be for TfL meeting attendees only. I would expect this paper will have to go the TfL Board in due course given the scale of spend. www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Part-1-Item08-LOCIP.pdfThe key aspects are pretty familiar but can be summarised as follows. - all existing 378s to be lengthened to 5 cars. - up to 5 extra trains may be procured. - depot works at Silwood and Willesden - signalling, platform and turn back works as required. - where possible provision for 6 car trains will be incorporated. The proposal for 5 car trains is apparently the most beneficial overall and gives "capacity overhead" until the mid 2020s. No works for the GOBLIN are in scope of the paper as funding is yet to be identified. I would guess this reflects the ongoing work to try to resolve a definitive future for the line re longer DMUs or electrification. The paper has a series of milestone dates and it looks to be a fairly aggressive programme in order to deliver by 2014/5 as per draft TfL business plans. Interestingly it seems TfL will contract the physical works directly and deliver as a third party on the NR network. One has to wonder if this reflects on Network Rail's ability to deliver this work given everything else it has on its plate. Discussions appear to be underway with Bombardier already to try to firm up prices, deliverability and commercial terms. A key risk relates to approvals for selective door operation. Although no locations are mentioned it does hint that SDO approvals will be requested for some stations - ELL perhaps?? Nice to see things moving along but  about more delay on the GOBLIN issue. |
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Post by melikepie on Jan 18, 2013 0:12:56 GMT
A key risk relates to approvals for selective door operation. Although no locations are mentioned it does hint that SDO approvals will be requested for some stations - ELL perhaps?? Nice to see things moving along but about more delay on the GOBLIN issue. Are there any emergency walkways in the Thames Tunnel? Would the carriage be stuck inside at Wapping or Rotherhithe or would it be similar to Stonehouse (the station is served by FGW 125 but only the back carriages)? Hmm, this strangely feels similar to when they were first to reopen the ELL, Wapping and Rotherhithe weren't to be originally included. |
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Post by Jerome H on Jan 18, 2013 2:57:57 GMT
Are all LO platforms right now at a length for 4 cars maximum, or are many capable of handling 5 cars with little or no major work? I haven't had the opportunity to get back into London in a while and have yet to experience London Overground.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 9:14:45 GMT
Are all LO platforms right now at a length for 4 cars maximum, or are many capable of handling 5 cars with little or no major work? I haven't had the opportunity to get back into London in a while and have yet to experience London Overground. Selective door opening would address this issue in the short term, however are there any stations where the platform length for a 5 car train is too short? XF |
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Post by redbond on Jan 18, 2013 9:22:47 GMT
I can't speak for the NLL but on the ELL a number of stations would just require the stop boards and platform end gates being moved, perhaps a few signals being moved backwards. Most of the new stations have space for an extra carriage. Canada Water, Rotherhithe and Wapping would have to be SDO, no question. There are no walkways in the tunnel sections, there isn't even enough room for the driver to get out. You're forgetting the fact that people can just walk through the carriages, so a walkway isn't needed, plus there is emergency exits at the cab ends for this reason. Stations south of New Cross Gate are all already extended to enable 10/12 car trains, so the only issue is stabling.
If all the units are to be extended then there is going to be a lot of work to be done at NXG depot. The berthing roads and maintenance sheds are configured for 4 car trains only, so it would be interesting to see how this can be done.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 10:43:15 GMT
Everyone says Kentish Town West wont be extended because its on a bridge and would requite SDO, how difficult would it be to extend the platform?
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Post by snoggle on Jan 18, 2013 12:14:13 GMT
If all the units are to be extended then there is going to be a lot of work to be done at NXG depot. The berthing roads and maintenance sheds are configured for 4 car trains only, so it would be interesting to see how this can be done. The paper refers to the ongoing process to buy additional land and secure planning permission for works to boost capacity at NXG. |
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Post by andypurk on Jan 18, 2013 12:28:49 GMT
Are all LO platforms right now at a length for 4 cars maximum, or are many capable of handling 5 cars with little or no major work? I haven't had the opportunity to get back into London in a while and have yet to experience London Overground. Most platforms are physically capable of taking 5 car trains with no major work and the rebuilds for the 4 car project have usually led to platforms long enough for 5 cars, unless this was too expensive. Several of the exceptions, where building work will be needed, are the West London line (Shepherd's Bush and Imperial Wharf at least). |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 12:47:01 GMT
Are all LO platforms right now at a length for 4 cars maximum, or are many capable of handling 5 cars with little or no major work? I haven't had the opportunity to get back into London in a while and have yet to experience London Overground. Most platforms are physically capable of taking 5 car trains with no major work and the rebuilds for the 4 car project have usually led to platforms long enough for 5 cars, unless this was too expensive. Several of the exceptions, where building work will be needed, are the West London line (Shepherd's Bush and Imperial Wharf at least). I'm sure they are far long enough for 5 cars! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 17:52:37 GMT
Some stations can already cope with 5 car trains. However some will need modifications to them ironically mostly those that were done to extend the platforms for 4 coaches!
Kentish Town West should not be a problem as works were done to extend the platforms to four cars, the fact it is on a viaduct is irrelevant.
Even when the final touches were being made to 4 car trains, the company were already talking about 5 car trains. The problem is the procurement of funds for the works, everything seems to be done to suit the then proposals and when plans to extend trains occur the platforms also have to be done.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 18:44:37 GMT
If all the units are to be extended then there is going to be a lot of work to be done at NXG depot. The berthing roads and maintenance sheds are configured for 4 car trains only, so it would be interesting to see how this can be done. The shed is going to be extended northwards (there is just enough land south of Surrey Canal Rd to do this). Of course the berthing positions will need to be changed throughout the depot, but it is the fact that you will no longer be able to get as many units on the roads as to why Silwood is needed. Other than the shed, the depot works will probably be more about moving stop boards, some of the train access platforms and possibly some GPL's I would imagine? |
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Post by christopher125 on Jan 18, 2013 19:36:48 GMT
- up to 5 extra trains may be procured. Only two by the looks of it - "Discussions are also being held on a price for the two additional units to enhance ELL frequency"Chris |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 18, 2013 22:32:39 GMT
- up to 5 extra trains may be procured. Only two by the looks of it - "Discussions are also being held on a price for the two additional units to enhance ELL frequency"Chris Not quite - see para 3.1 (e) in the paper that refers to up to 5 for peak frequency enhancements. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2013 1:31:14 GMT
Wapping and Rotherhithe used to take 6 car C stock regularly 40-50 years ago, I would have thought they could just about manage a 5 car 378. Observe the unused platform beyond the barriers.
Canada Water however is going to be a problem, particularly when we start talking about 6 cars as SDO wouldn't be enough.
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Post by christopher125 on Jan 19, 2013 1:40:48 GMT
Not quite - see para 3.1 (e) in the paper that refers to up to 5 for peak frequency enhancements. As someone pointed out to me it's referring to extra 5-car units rather than 5 extra units - easily misread due to the missing hyphen. "procurement of new Class 378 rolling stock cars to extend the existing four-car units to five-car units plus potentially additional five car units to increase peak service frequency" Chris |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 19, 2013 12:27:14 GMT
Wapping and Rotherhithe used to take 6 car C stock regularly 40-50 years ago, I don't think so: as far as I am aware the ELL has always operated 3- or 4-car trains, and in any case there was no C-stock in existenece 50 years ago. Although the ELL was cleared for C stock (in 4-car formations, not the usual six) I don't think it ever ran in service. F, Q, 1938, A, D, and A again were the only stocks used on that line in the past sixty years. However, previous to the F stock it was operated by cars of the original 1910-vintage "C" stock, (later classified "H" stock). Alongside these was a single 3-car train of "S" stock - a scratch set made up of various Metropolitan Railway prototypes built in the 1920s. |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 19, 2013 12:28:45 GMT
Not quite - see para 3.1 (e) in the paper that refers to up to 5 for peak frequency enhancements. As someone pointed out to me it's referring to extra 5-car units rather than 5 extra units - easily misread due to the missing hyphen. "procurement of new Class 378 rolling stock cars to extend the existing four-car units to five-car units plus potentially additional five car units to increase peak service frequency" Chris Fair comment - I read it wrong. Sorry for any confusion. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 19, 2013 14:18:49 GMT
The ELL ran at one point 5 car CO/CP stock trains. It also ran some 6 car trains long ago with the through service from Hammersmith.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 19, 2013 14:50:03 GMT
The ELL ran at one point 5 car CO/CP stock trains. . When was that? according to Brian Hardy's book, some new 3-car P stock sets had been intended for use on the ELL from 1938, but they went to the District main line and H stock was used on the ELL instead up until about 1953, when it was displaced by F stock. This was in turn replaced by Q stock in 1963 which lasted until the 1938 stock took over in 1971 |
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Post by andypurk on Jan 19, 2013 16:25:27 GMT
Most platforms are physically capable of taking 5 car trains with no major work and the rebuilds for the 4 car project have usually led to platforms long enough for 5 cars, unless this was too expensive. Several of the exceptions, where building work will be needed, are the West London line (Shepherd's Bush and Imperial Wharf at least). I'm sure they are far long enough for 5 cars! Shepherd's Bush Up platform (normally southbound) is less than 100m, the normally northbound platform is a bit longer but wasn't widened at the northern end when the platform had to be rebuilt before opening. Both platforms at Imperial Wharf are also < 100m. At 5 car class 378 would be 101.3m, so some extra platform length would be needed at both stations to allow for variation in the stopping positions and to allow the cab doors to be on the platforms. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2013 14:46:16 GMT
Dont forget that Southern intend to operate 8 car trains via the WLL by 2014, so platform lengthening is on the cards for all WLL stations except Olympia where the platforms are already long enough.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Jan 23, 2013 0:54:33 GMT
Norb: 1964-1965, 6car trains of CP stock started on ELL. 1971-1974, 4car but predominantly 5car trains provided the service. 6cars of CP would have been ~307' long, and were unpopular with crews because they required the end doors to be cut out at Rotherhith and Wapping. Thats from Piers Connor's 'COP story'. No doubt some on the forum might be able to give first hand accounts?  |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 23, 2013 6:51:04 GMT
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Jan 23, 2013 9:58:25 GMT
63-64, and 65-71... possibly?
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Post by snoggle on Feb 7, 2013 12:22:15 GMT
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l1group
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Post by l1group on Feb 7, 2013 20:09:56 GMT
As a follow up to the previous chat about the potential project it has now become reality. The TfL Board has approved a project to extend all class 378s to 5 car length together with the associated infrastructure modifications to cater for them. There is also a possible small order of additional trains (certainly mentioned in the Board Paper). Finally. WLL loadings are a nightmare and do need the 5th car. Or even 6th (well, a bit too expensive at the moment). In any case, all of LO need to have a 5th car at least!. It is odd how the WLL was not filled to capacity when run by Silverlink, yet when LO take over, it has now filled to capacity, and then some! And that in any case, a Shepherd's Bush station wasn't there until some Aussies arrived to build a shopping centre... 111th! |
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about more delay on the GOBLIN issue.
