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Post by snoggle on Dec 4, 2012 17:39:58 GMT
Group members might be interested in this snippet from the Draft TfL Business Plan that was launched today. www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/TV12_026_Business_Plan_D15LR.pdfFollowing commentary about a second stage of upgrades to the Northern Line (NLU 2) which needs more trains there is then this comment in respect of the Jubilee Line. "TfL will use this opportunity to buy additional trains to relieve future crowding on the Jubilee line. These trains will enable increased frequencies on the line, over and above those achieved by the 2011 Jubilee line upgrade. Preparatory works for these improvements are due to begin in 2016." Page 14 of the plan is where the above can be found. |
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Post by Deep Level on Dec 4, 2012 19:16:46 GMT
I'm assuming 96 stock trains aren't still being manufactured so I'm guessing they will be all new trains, I thought TfL were against mixed fleets on London Underground.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2012 19:30:40 GMT
Moving things forward to 2016-17, would the numbers work if you:
- Bought a full new fleet for the Northern line
- Refurbished the '95 Stock (by then they'll be more than 15 years old anyway, and probably well in need of a refurb)
- Mixed some refurbished '95s with '96s (which could undergo a refurb at about a similar time)
- Put the rest of the refurbished '95s on the Bakerloo
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 4, 2012 20:28:47 GMT
Moving things forward to 2016-17, would the numbers work if you: - Bought a full new fleet for the Northern line - Refurbished the '95 Stock (by then they'll be more than 15 years old anyway, and probably well in need of a refurb) - Mixed some refurbished '95s with '96s (which could undergo a refurb at about a similar time) - Put the rest of the refurbished '95s on the Bakerloo If you replace the bakerloo trains on a one for one basis, that would use 33 1995 stock trains, leaving no less than 73 surplus trains to augment the 59 trains on the Jubilee. It might be better to transfer the 1996 stock to the bakerloo (33 trains) and the Northern (26 trains) and build a new fleet for the Jubilee. But would the long 1995/1996 cars fit in the Bakerloo's twisty tunnels? |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 4, 2012 20:39:52 GMT
I'm assuming 96 stock trains aren't still being manufactured so I'm guessing they will be all new trains, I thought TfL were against mixed fleets on London Underground. If the production run is long enough, it can be worth making them compatible - after all the 1949 stock was built to work with the 1938 stock - a gap of 11 years. R stock was built in batches in 1938 (as Q stock), 1947, 1949 and 1959. Has the tooling been scrapped? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2012 21:43:20 GMT
Moving things forward to 2016-17, would the numbers work if you: - Bought a full new fleet for the Northern line - Refurbished the '95 Stock (by then they'll be more than 15 years old anyway, and probably well in need of a refurb) - Mixed some refurbished '95s with '96s (which could undergo a refurb at about a similar time) - Put the rest of the refurbished '95s on the Bakerloo No they wouldn't, reason being you cannot "mix" '95 and '96 stock trains. The different traction equipment and bogie design prohibit this. Even if you kept the two types apart for making a unit up in a fleet, the fact that 1996 stock trains come in 7 car (1x 4 car + 1x 3 car making up a train) formation, this could cause even further difficulties. Having two different types of train in a fleet makes no economic sense and just creates unwanted grief. After all the 1995 stock replaced a mixture of 59/72 stock in the first place. LUL do not own the 1995 stock, they are on a (30?) year pfi agreement with alstom, LUL do however own the 1996 stock, but they are still maintained by Alstom. See the madness here?  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2012 22:27:35 GMT
After all the 1995 stock replaced a mixture of 59/72 stock in the first place. Which had replaced a homogeneous fleet of 1938 stock. While I would not dispute the advantages of each line having its own single type of stock, doing so is a principle which is a good servant, but a bad master. It will work if, having built a fleet for a line, that is the right sized fleet to work that line until replaced by complete new fleet 30-50 years later. But (AIUI) the only fleets (so far) for which that is true are the 1973, 1995 and 2009 stocks - everything else has been supplemented, reorganised or transferred - to greater or lesser extent - over its lifetime. (The Jubilee 1996 stock is already of mixed vintage). Or should it be that if line need more trains (to provide more service, or for an extension) when its fleet is half way through its life, TfL (or whatever it is then) should say - sorry, you can't have it for twenty years? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2012 23:06:20 GMT
Moving things forward to 2016-17, would the numbers work if you: - Bought a full new fleet for the Northern line - Refurbished the '95 Stock (by then they'll be more than 15 years old anyway, and probably well in need of a refurb) - Mixed some refurbished '95s with '96s (which could undergo a refurb at about a similar time) - Put the rest of the refurbished '95s on the Bakerloo If you replace the bakerloo trains on a one for one basis, that would use 33 1995 stock trains, leaving no less than 73 surplus trains to augment the 59 trains on the Jubilee. It might be better to transfer the 1996 stock to the bakerloo (33 trains) and the Northern (26 trains) and build a new fleet for the Jubilee. But would the long 1995/1996 cars fit in the Bakerloo's twisty tunnels? The answer is no, they cannot fit in the Bakerloo |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 4, 2012 23:31:58 GMT
But (AIUI) the only fleets (so far) for which that is true are the 1973, 1995 and 2009 stocks - everything else has been supplemented, reorganised or transferred - to greater or lesser extent - over its lifetime. (The Jubilee 1996 stock is already of mixed vintage). D and S stock are not of mixed vintages, nor is the 1992 stock as far as I am aware, and they are working the lines for which they were built. 1972 Mk 2 stock - (with the odd Mk 1 car included) has worked on three lines, but was, I understand, originally intended for the Bakerloo. And now that the A stock and 1967 stock (with its ex-1972 ringers) have gone, that only leaves C69/77 stock and 1996 stock as being of mixed vintage! |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Dec 5, 2012 7:36:09 GMT
Moving things forward to 2016-17, would the numbers work if you: - Bought a full new fleet for the Northern line - Refurbished the '95 Stock (by then they'll be more than 15 years old anyway, and probably well in need of a refurb) - Mixed some refurbished '95s with '96s (which could undergo a refurb at about a similar time) - Put the rest of the refurbished '95s on the Bakerloo No they wouldn't, reason being you cannot "mix" '95 and '96 stock trains. The different traction equipment and bogie design prohibit this. Even if you kept the two types apart for making a unit up in a fleet, the fact that 1996 stock trains come in 7 car (1x 4 car + 1x 3 car making up a train) formation, this could cause even further difficulties. Having two different types of train in a fleet makes no economic sense and just creates unwanted grief. After all the 1995 stock replaced a mixture of 59/72 stock in the first place. LUL do not own the 1995 stock, they are on a (30?) year pfi agreement with alstom, LUL do however own the 1996 stock, but they are still maintained by Alstom. See the madness here? Alstom do not maintain the 1996 stock, its done by Tubelines. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Dec 5, 2012 12:43:18 GMT
And wasn't the 1995ts maintanence programme bought by TfL a couple of years ago? Or something like that?
Theres nothing to stop the tighter pinch points of the Bakerloo being reprofiled for the 95ts, of course (aside from the spondoola!), however it would probably be frowned upon because of PTI issues at places like Waterloo. Thats already bad with 52½' cars, would be attrocious with 58¼' ones.
The Northern has enough to cover the Pic, a few extra for the Jub, and still provide the W&C. But the Pics stock argueably could end up lasting as long as the Mets, the W&C would need some work for tight births in the depot, and the Jub would probably prefer trains with compatible equipment.
Electronic traction packages date far quicker than electromechanical ones, I should think. Getting new equipment to an ancient spec. would probably prove difficult and expensive, especially if a relatively limited order was placed. It might prove easier to just go for something that provides the same operational characteristics and metrics and is compatible than something identical.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 5, 2012 14:56:57 GMT
Electronic traction packages date far quicker than electromechanical ones, I should think. Getting new equipment to an ancient spec. would probably prove difficult and expensive, especially if a relatively limited order was placed. It might prove easier to just go for something that provides the same operational characteristics and metrics and is compatible than something identical. The stock is already approaching 20 years old: if it is to get a mid-life upgrade that might be a suitable opportunity to add a few 1995 cars to the 1996 fleet, as all the cars would be being re-equipped anyway. There would remain the question of how to make six-car Northern line trains into seven-car Jubilee ones: you would need four car sets for the Drain so that would provide ten spare bodies. |
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Dec 5, 2012 19:59:55 GMT
Indeed, norbitonflyer. Funnily enough this topic came up not so long ago in another thread  Asifbymagic:  |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 5, 2012 21:03:43 GMT
Indeed, norbitonflyer. Funnily enough this topic came up not so long ago in another thread Where was that? |
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Dec 5, 2012 21:55:01 GMT
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