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WTT 67
Sept 25, 2012 21:27:04 GMT
Post by superteacher on Sept 25, 2012 21:27:04 GMT
Due to be introduced next year at some point, I've heard that the next Central line timetable will see 30tph both ways during both peaks.
Any truth in this?
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Deleted
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WTT 67
Sept 26, 2012 10:01:07 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2012 10:01:07 GMT
From the memo "Early discussions begin on new Timetables" dated 9 September 2012. Meant to come into effect June 2013, so from past experience Aug/Sep.
The Key Points of the new WTT 67 for the Central line are:
• Increase of 7% km run on the Central Line.
• Increased Monday to Friday peaks using 79 trains (77 in WTT 66).
• Inter-peak weekday services will have a revised 24tph pattern with 66 trains (67 in WTT 66).
• Evening service is much improved to 24tph retained to 22:00, then 18tph until as late as possible.
• Saturdays are improved for most of day with 24tph from 08:00 and to 22:00, with 26.6tph (2¼ minute - 72 trains) between12:30 - 18:30 to meet increased demand, with 18tph early in the morning and later in the day.
• Sunday also improved by 21.8tph 10:30 - 21:00 (2¾ minute - 61 trains) and 18tph early in the morning and later in the day.
• No detrainment on 'siding reversing' trains.
• General avoidance of 'Pairs' going to branch lines
In addition the W&C will now run later on Saturdays and with a Sunday service which will effect Leytonstone depot who crew the Drain.
I'm going to blog about this at some point soon but I'm on nights at the mo and got too much housework, etc, to catch up on. Looks like we're going to need a lot more TOps on the Central and most of those that came to us for the Olympics have already gone to the Northern.
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cso
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WTT 67
Sept 26, 2012 10:31:00 GMT
Post by cso on Sept 26, 2012 10:31:00 GMT
• No detrainment on 'siding reversing' trains. • General avoidance of 'Pairs' going to branch lines Do I take it from the first bullet that passengers will be carried in to sidings? The second one I'm assuming means that you won't have Ealing Broadway, Ealing Broadway, West Ruislip, Ealing Broadway, West Ruislip, Northolt for example? |
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
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WTT 67
Sept 26, 2012 12:39:11 GMT
Post by Colin on Sept 26, 2012 12:39:11 GMT
Do I take it from the first bullet that passengers will be carried in to sidings? I am aware that on the northern ends of the Bakerloo & Jubilee lines, full detrainment no longer takes place. Drivers are instructed to make a PA and turn the lights on & off three times before closing the doors and moving into their reversing siding. Looks like this practice is spreading to the Central line. Given that full detrainments (ie, proper physical check of each individual car) are subject to a legally enforceable requirement by HMRI/ORR or whoever it is that can legally require LU to comply with their instructions, I'm certainly interested in knowing how LU are justifying this change and are getting it approved by the relevant authorities. Before anyone raises the Kennington loop, that is different in that the driver is not changing ends and thus will not potentially come across someone who doesn't want to sit in a siding for 10 minutes or more. Staff assault is a very real issue, and trust me drivers are not immune. |
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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WTT 67
Sept 26, 2012 13:46:44 GMT
Post by North End on Sept 26, 2012 13:46:44 GMT
Do I take it from the first bullet that passengers will be carried in to sidings? I am aware that on the northern ends of the Bakerloo & Jubilee lines, full detrainment no longer takes place. Drivers are instructed to make a PA and turn the lights on & off three times before closing the doors and moving into their reversing siding. Looks like this practice is spreading to the Central line. Given that full detrainments (ie, proper physical check of each individual car) are subject to a legally enforceable requirement by HMRI/ORR or whoever it is that can legally require LU to comply with their instructions, I'm certainly interested in knowing how LU are justifying this change and are getting it approved by the relevant authorities. Before anyone raises the Kennington loop, that is different in that the driver is not changing ends and thus will not potentially come across someone who doesn't want to sit in a siding for 10 minutes or more. Staff assault is a very real issue, and trust me drivers are not immune. I know that on the Jubilee Line (and presumably also the Bakerloo) inner inter-car barriers have been fitted, which are designed to prevent someone falling onto the track if passing between the cars. One presumes that, as this was the basic cause of the Liverpool Street fatality, HMRI/ORR have agreed that the requirement for a physical detrainment no longer applies. It appears the inner inter-car barriers are being fitted on those lines where there is most to be gained from removing the time taken to detrain. I think there were or are (?) plans for 2x additional trains on the Bakerloo Line, part of a timetable increase now there is additional capacity through Queen's Park n/b as a result of the time saved. Whether inner inter-car barriers will spread to other lines remains to be seen. Using the Northern as an example, removing the need to detrain at places like Tooting Broadway would not benefit the normal timetable as no trains are booked to reverse there, however it would certainly be useful during disruption. |
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WTT 67
Sept 26, 2012 17:34:33 GMT
Post by melikepie on Sept 26, 2012 17:34:33 GMT
Before anyone raises the Kennington loop, that is different in that the driver is not changing ends and thus will not potentially come across someone who doesn't want to sit in a siding for 10 minutes or more. Has that ever happened? |
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WTT 67
Sept 26, 2012 18:26:40 GMT
Post by d7666 on Sept 26, 2012 18:26:40 GMT
From the memo "Early discussions begin on new Timetables" I've seen a more detailed document than that one ... ... there is one bit more of relevance to the original thread question, there is a very short burst of increased peak TPH - but I'll need to look it up. One point I can remember, WTT66 true 77 trains but WT65 was 79, the drop from 79 to 77 removed the "hot standby" units, or whatever term the operators use, during the window/seat/etc replacements. Actually the 77 trains of WTT66 running is achieved for only a handful of minutes in each peak, both a.m. and p.m. the "last one out" precedes the "first on in" by a matter of minutes, although at different locations. -- D7666 |
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
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WTT 67
Sept 26, 2012 19:06:48 GMT
Post by Colin on Sept 26, 2012 19:06:48 GMT
Errmmm.....not sure what you're asking  |
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Fahad
In memoriam
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WTT 67
Sept 26, 2012 19:13:10 GMT
Post by Fahad on Sept 26, 2012 19:13:10 GMT
Certainly passengers have been stuck in the Kennington Loop, and in reversing sidings, for large amounts of time
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Deleted
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WTT 67
Sept 26, 2012 19:17:35 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2012 19:17:35 GMT
Sorry, but who are HMRI/ORR?
Toby
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WTT 67
Sept 26, 2012 19:41:32 GMT
Post by abe on Sept 26, 2012 19:41:32 GMT
HMRI: Her Majesty's Railway Inspectorate
ORR: Office of Rail Regulation
HMRI had a long history, dating back to the early days of railways. In recent years it joined the Health & Safety Exec, and then the ORR, and has since become the Safety Directorate within the ORR.
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WTT 67
Sept 26, 2012 20:27:08 GMT
Post by melikepie on Sept 26, 2012 20:27:08 GMT
Errmmm.....not sure what you're asking See Fahad's post below yours. What have people done when that has happened? |
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
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WTT 67
Sept 26, 2012 21:04:07 GMT
Post by Colin on Sept 26, 2012 21:04:07 GMT
Well the Kennington loop is just that, so the driver does not leave their cab.
Trains can take up to 20 minutes to traverse the loop so I suppose the obvious starter for ten would be a passenger alarm once a rouge passenger becomes concerned at non movement. Usual protocol is to deal with a passenger alarm at the next platform, but if multiple handles are pulled I suppose the driver may feel obliged to go back prior to reaching Kennington northbound.
In a straight siding reverse, the driver must change ends - this is usually done inside the train.
Now imagine in either case having to deal with a passenger that's not too happy at being informed they may be "trapped" on the train for some time. It's them & you and there's no place to move away from them as you are also "trapped" in the same area. I can't speak directly about any specific incident but I am aware that there have been problems in the past with verbal abuse and physical threats.
Personally speaking, I don't relish the idea.
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Deleted
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WTT 67
Sept 29, 2012 23:38:22 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2012 23:38:22 GMT
I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the signalling yet. Reversing sidings are typically signalled to a reduced standard compared to the running line (there are exceptions of course)
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mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
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WTT 67
Sept 29, 2012 23:54:11 GMT
Post by mrfs42 on Sept 29, 2012 23:54:11 GMT
I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the signalling yet. Reversing sidings are typically signalled to a reduced standard compared to the running line (there are exceptions of course) Quite. Presumably the distinction is irrelevant with the latest batch of rule changes? |
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Deleted
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WTT 67
Oct 1, 2012 11:09:10 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 11:09:10 GMT
I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the signalling yet. Reversing sidings are typically signalled to a reduced standard compared to the running line (there are exceptions of course) Quite. Presumably the distinction is irrelevant with the latest batch of rule changes? Indeed. OSN 101 came out last year and now we can take passengers over shunt signals but only with authorisation from Wood Lane Control Room so that still means that if we take a passenger up a siding by mistake it's still a carry over. |
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WTT 67
Mar 4, 2013 22:18:11 GMT
Post by superteacher on Mar 4, 2013 22:18:11 GMT
Mods, hope you don't mind me "bumping" this thread.
Any updates as to when WTT67 is being introduced, plus any other updates in respect of the service changes?
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Deleted
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WTT 67
Mar 4, 2013 22:42:58 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2013 22:42:58 GMT
I think it (and the W&C) may have been deferred until September.
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WTT 67
Mar 5, 2013 19:53:30 GMT
Post by greatkingrat on Mar 5, 2013 19:53:30 GMT
If it relies on running trains into sidings without being detrained then I am not surprised it has been delayed, at least until the Bakerloo line situation is resolved.
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Deleted
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WTT 67
Mar 6, 2013 13:41:07 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2013 13:41:07 GMT
Inner inter car barriers are already being fitted to the central line, about 20 or so trains have been done already, they look like a crocodiles smile to me
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WTT 67
Mar 6, 2013 19:51:14 GMT
Post by superteacher on Mar 6, 2013 19:51:14 GMT
If it relies on running trains into sidings without being detrained then I am not surprised it has been delayed, at least until the Bakerloo line situation is resolved. I don't really see why it would be a factor. The only places in the current timetable where trains run into sidings in normal circumstances are Northolt, Newbury Park, Debden and occasionally White City siding. The first three are on branch lines, meaning that the next train behind will be, at the least, 4 mins behind. This is plenty of time to detrain and put the train into the siding without delaying the one behind. Unless, of course, they are planning to bring back Liverpool Street and Marble Arch off peak reversers, in which case the train behind would be held up. I really can't see them doing that though. Travel patterns and off peak usage have changed a lot in the years since we last had LIS and MAA reversers. |
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WTT 67
Mar 7, 2013 10:42:23 GMT
Post by su31 on Mar 7, 2013 10:42:23 GMT
Surely they'd still have to detrain to go into sidings in tunnel sections. Some reversing trains at Marble Arch for instance don't come straight back out onto the eastbound road.
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WTT 67
Mar 9, 2013 0:28:27 GMT
Post by superteacher on Mar 9, 2013 0:28:27 GMT
Marble Arch siding is not used for stabling trains, except in cases of failure. Most trains that reverse at Marble Arch do so due to late running, and will come back out after a reasonably short time. If this was not the case, then they would detain.
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WTT 67
Mar 14, 2013 21:49:25 GMT
Post by d7666 on Mar 14, 2013 21:49:25 GMT
What about Woodford ? "Hainault via Woodford" run forward at Woodford to 21 road to reverse.
And Ruislip Gardens, where some westbounds terminate and run to depot ?
And Loughton, where EOT trains from Epping terminate to sidings and stable ?
--
Nick
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WTT 67
Mar 16, 2013 2:35:16 GMT
Post by superteacher on Mar 16, 2013 2:35:16 GMT
What about Woodford ? "Hainault via Woodford" run forward at Woodford to 21 road to reverse. And Ruislip Gardens, where some westbounds terminate and run to depot ? And Loughton, where EOT trains from Epping terminate to sidings and stable ? -- Nick The locations I quoted are for places where trains go into sidings, then back into service. If you are talking about trains stabling, then these would need to be detained anyway, which therefore isn!t related to what this thread is discussing. We were talking about trains running directly into sidings without being detrained. However, you did mention Woodford, which could be a siding where detrainment could be deemed as unnecessary. |
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WTT 67
Mar 16, 2013 14:40:47 GMT
Post by d7666 on Mar 16, 2013 14:40:47 GMT
What about Woodford ? "Hainault via Woodford" run forward at Woodford to 21 road to reverse. And Ruislip Gardens, where some westbounds terminate and run to depot ? And Loughton, where EOT trains from Epping terminate to sidings and stable ? -- Nick The locations I quoted are for places where trains go into sidings, then back into service. If you are talking about trains stabling, then these would need to be detained anyway, which therefore isn!t related to what this thread is discussing. We were talking about trains running directly into sidings without being detrained. However, you did mention Woodford, which could be a siding where detrainment could be deemed as unnecessary. I read the chat and the list of locations as being about delays to following service while detraining and/or over carrying persons. The person being over carried - exactly BECAUSE it is an over carry - won't know if its a reversing move or not, and the dwell time of detraining to go to depot and detraining to go to a reversing siding is the same. Indeed, you have White City, where you could do either. -- Nick |
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WTT 67
Mar 16, 2013 15:47:42 GMT
Post by superteacher on Mar 16, 2013 15:47:42 GMT
The point I was making was that I think that could still detrain at most locations without adversely affecting the service, unless they are going to bring back Marble Arch reverses etc. In that case, detraining definitely would delay the following service if there was a close interval scheduled between trains.
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Deleted
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WTT 67
Apr 17, 2013 7:42:16 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 7:42:16 GMT
They are advertising for IOps, apparently one of the reasons WTT67 is coming in late is that there are so few that it's going to take until September for them to train enough newbies to have the numbers to bring in the new timetable.
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towerman
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WTT 67
Apr 26, 2013 15:19:22 GMT
Post by towerman on Apr 26, 2013 15:19:22 GMT
Just slightly off topic,did you know that when the current numbering system started in the mid 80's the Hainault-Ealings were numbered 1 to 20 & Epping-West Ruislips were numbered 21 to 37.
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Deleted
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WTT 67
Apr 26, 2013 19:52:30 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2013 19:52:30 GMT
Bakerloo procedure (the new one), is that the Driver does his/her PA's, flashes the lights on and off and closes the doors and then stays where they until two members of staff (at Queen's Park and sometimes at Harrow) and one at Stonebridge Park and most of the time at Harrow, walk along the platform looking in to see if anyone is still on the train. If they are, the platform staff release them using the butterfly cocks. Once all is checked as being clear, platform staff verbally give the Driver the info face-to-face. This system has been nicknamed 'flash and peep', as opposed to 'flash and dash' which was previously in place.
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