|
Post by programmes1 on Aug 7, 2012 17:27:29 GMT
I am hoping someone can clarify I have just seen on flickr a photo of one of these trains the caption stated that after the Picc line they moved on to the Northern was this true I don't recall reading this before.
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,400
|
Post by metman on Aug 7, 2012 18:11:22 GMT
Sort of. They were developed for the Northern Line but LT did not like streamlining, especially where middle cabs met. It was for this reason the fourth 1935 stock unit was built with flat fronts and the rest is history.
The cab layout was not popular with drivers with a central seated position and much testing was done on the Piccadilly Line. I don't believe the streamlined trains ever made it onto the Northern. If they did it was briefly to test.
The post war was plan was for the flat front cars to be used on the Central Line shuttles (Epping-Ongar/Woodford-Hainault) and for the streamliners to have a trailer inserted and run as 7 car trains on the Picc. The cabs could not be modified to the liking of train crews and the 18 cars were converted to trailers with the cabs rebuilt with a trailing end and did indeed run on the Northern until the early 1970s when scrapping began.
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 7, 2012 20:13:51 GMT
According to Brian Hardy's book the flat fronted train was used for gauging tests on the Northern in 1938, prior to arrival of the 1938 stock. The streamliners were converted, after about 10 years in store, to trailers which were indeed used on the northern
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,400
|
Post by metman on Aug 7, 2012 20:48:37 GMT
That'll be it then, I'm sure I read that they were involved in some testing on the Northern. Probably read it in one of Brian's book.
|
|
|
Post by programmes1 on Aug 8, 2012 8:18:12 GMT
According to Brian Hardy's book the flat fronted train was used for gauging tests on the Northern in 1938, prior to arrival of the 1938 stock. The streamliners were converted, after about 10 years in store, to trailers which were indeed used on the northern Thanks I think the caption for the photo could be worded better link attached. www.flickr.com/photos/17889585@N03/7732723772/in/set-72157617867893385
|
|
|
Post by harrowman on Aug 8, 2012 13:45:28 GMT
The cab layout was not popular with drivers with a central seated position I'm not surprised the seat looked very uncomfortable and the position of controls made it almost impossible to stand.
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,400
|
Post by metman on Aug 8, 2012 18:08:38 GMT
You couldn't stand, and this was the issue. The cabs were draughty and I believe the guard had to use the rear cab too!
One cab was rebuilt with a taller elevation but this was not accepted but crews either. Shame a cab was not preserved.
|
|
|
Post by harrowman on Aug 8, 2012 19:45:25 GMT
Shame a cab was not preserved. Indeed, the the cab exterior would look very elegant even by today's standard.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2012 8:06:41 GMT
Shame a cab was not preserved. Indeed, the the cab exterior would look very elegant even by today's standard. +1
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2012 8:13:22 GMT
You couldn't stand, and this was the issue. The cabs were draughty and I believe the guard had to use the rear cab too! One cab was rebuilt with a taller elevation but this was not accepted but crews either. Shame a cab was not preserved. Funny enough, the front of EVO train has a striking resemblance to that rebuilt 1935 stock cab with taller windows.
|
|
|
Post by harrowman on Aug 9, 2012 11:31:54 GMT
You couldn't stand, and this was the issue. The cabs were draughty and I believe the guard had to use the rear cab too! One cab was rebuilt with a taller elevation but this was not accepted but crews either. Shame a cab was not preserved. Funny enough, the front of EVO train has a striking resemblance to that rebuilt 1935 stock cab with taller windows. The front reminds me of the rear gunners position on the B-17 flying fortress. ;D
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2012 7:57:38 GMT
The 1935 stock has a touch of the 'Darth Vader' Gatwick Express stock --- or vice versa.
Andy
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,400
|
Post by metman on Aug 11, 2012 8:16:25 GMT
Yes actually it does have a touch of Star Wars! ;D
Streamlining was popular in the 1930s but it wasn't popular with LT! It was shown that streamlining only works at speeds over 80mph so not much use.
If the streamline units were retained on the Piccadilly they would have needed new equipments as the offerings on some of them were hopeless!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2012 13:29:49 GMT
According to Brian Hardy's book the flat fronted train was used for gauging tests on the Northern in 1938, prior to arrival of the 1938 stock. The streamliners were converted, after about 10 years in store, to trailers which were indeed used on the northern Units 10009+10010 went to the Northern 31/3/38 and returned on 4/7/38, after the first 1938s had arrived. There is no record of them carrying passengers on the Northern, which seems to be the case as only four cars were loaned. Interestingly 10009 (with 10011) entered service 24/1/38 (on the Picc) but 10010 didn't enter service (on the Picc) until 10/3/38.
|
|
|
Post by madandy on Aug 11, 2012 13:47:36 GMT
I always found those trains really iconic with a BIG "WOW!" factor.
I don't think they would wasted space would be an issue if the streamlined cabs were confined to the ends of trains but there is one thing I have often read including here that puzzles me..... that the driers did not like them because, amongst other reasons, the drivers seat was in the middle of the cab.
Why would that be an issue.... a question that prompts a further question.... Why are drivers seats on the left of cabs (and if they were on the right I'd be asking why)?
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,400
|
Post by metman on Aug 11, 2012 14:40:24 GMT
The reason I think is because the platforms have traditionally been on the left hand side of the train.
|
|
|
Post by harrowman on Aug 13, 2012 19:57:25 GMT
In my experience before OMO/OPO it made little difference, perhaps tubeprune could come up with some sort of answer.
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,400
|
Post by metman on Aug 13, 2012 19:58:59 GMT
No I suppose you would listen for the starting bell. Perhaps there is another historical reason??
|
|
|
Post by bruce on Aug 13, 2012 20:38:09 GMT
May it have something to do with the American influence on the tube in the days of Yerkes. Isn't the New York metro left hand drive?
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 13, 2012 20:55:35 GMT
May it have something to do with the American influence on the tube in the days of Yerkes. Isn't the New York metro left hand drive? New York subway controls on the right of train, the same side as '09 Stock, as they drive their cars on the wrong side too?
|
|
|
Post by harrowman on Aug 14, 2012 7:06:18 GMT
May it have something to do with the American influence on the tube in the days of Yerkes. Isn't the New York metro left hand drive? New York subway controls on the right of train, the same side as '09 Stock, as they drive their cars on the wrong side too? I have no comment, except that these posts caused me to laugh. ;D ;D
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 14, 2012 9:58:50 GMT
The reason I think is because the platforms have traditionally been on the left hand side of the train. Not true for most deep tube lines, where the majority of platforms are islands. Surely it is because signals are normally situated on the left hand side (where there is more room to install them and they are more easily accessible to maintenance staff? Also, in the days of steam, it allowed a right handed driver to keep his hand on the regulator whilst leaning out of the window. (Although not all main line companies followed this logic - for example GWR and GNR locomotives were driven from the right hand side, and signal positioning was arranged accordingly)
|
|
|
Post by harrowman on Aug 14, 2012 10:30:07 GMT
I don't think they would wasted space would be an issue if the streamlined cabs were confined to the ends of trains All Underground lines adopted a policy of changing train lengths during the traffic day. So that would have been a big issue. (Excuse the pun).
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,400
|
Post by metman on Aug 14, 2012 10:46:11 GMT
Yes uncoupling was widely used pre-war and the tube lines resumed uncoupling in about 1950. It ceased around 1959.
While on the subject of uncoupling- I know there was a great fuss made about Watford (LMS) services uncoupling (at Waford Jn?) and then the UNDM having to run over a mile to Croxley depot. When the UNDMs were reduced in number did all recoupling take place at Watford?
|
|
|
Post by harrowman on Aug 14, 2012 11:10:55 GMT
Yes uncoupling was widely used pre-war and the tube lines resumed uncoupling in about 1950. It ceased around 1959. Even with my fading memory I am sure it contnued into the sixties on Sundays.
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,400
|
Post by metman on Aug 14, 2012 11:58:04 GMT
It did on the District (1971) and Met (1981) but I'm sure the tube lines stopped in 1959.
The Central line pre-1938 stock was even converted from M-T-T-M+M-T-T-M to M-T+M-T-T-M+T-M.
|
|
|
Post by harrowman on Aug 14, 2012 12:11:30 GMT
It did on the District (1971) and Met (1981) but I'm sure the tube lines stopped in 1959. The Central line pre-1938 stock was even converted from M-T-T-M+M-T-T-M to M-T+M-T-T-M+T-M. It was the Met I was thinking of.
|
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on Aug 14, 2012 20:47:11 GMT
The reason I think is because the platforms have traditionally been on the left hand side of the train. Not true for most deep tube lines, where the majority of platforms are islands. Surely it is because signals are normally situated on the left hand side (where there is more room to install them and they are more easily accessible to maintenance staff? Also, in the days of steam, it allowed a right handed driver to keep his hand on the regulator whilst leaning out of the window. (Although not all main line companies followed this logic - for example GWR and GNR locomotives were driven from the right hand side, and signal positioning was arranged accordingly) May have been the case in the past, however in the Tube tunnels signals are normally sited on the *right* side, as this is where the cable run / air main is located, which in turn is on that side because that is where the trainstops are located. Obviously some signals are sited on the left for sighting reasons etc.
|
|
rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,246
|
Post by rincew1nd on Aug 14, 2012 21:21:42 GMT
not all main line companies followed this logic - for example GWR ... locomotives were driven from the right hand side... Oh come now, you can't expect the GWR </vomit> to be logical, surely? Them and their floppy signals, pah!
|
|
|
Post by 1018509 on Aug 14, 2012 22:41:22 GMT
Oh come now, you can't expect the GWR </vomit> to be logical, surely? Them and their floppy signals, pah! How dare you refer to God's Wonderful Railway like this! ;D
|
|