Willesden Green Reversers During Wembley Event

Sound like good points to me. I may have thrown in a Neasden reverser too just before the Willesden Grn one!

The Metropolitan Line service had been restored and it's trains were as packed as the Jubilee trains.

The headways South of Willesden Green were unaffected. The most crowded trains were those immediately behind the Willesden reversers (presumably due to a large gap in service up to there) and whilst those of us at Willesden Green may, very rarely take heed of the train starting out from there those further down the line are not enightened as to the possibility and cram into the first train that comes in and may wait for the second one but seeing that one is crammed too will force they way in believing they are all like that.

I fail to see how capacity at the East end of the line is affected as all trains would be going there at the same intervals anyway.

Maybe I am missing something here but turning it on it's head if there is a logical reason for this then by the same token when there are football crowds at weekends when there are no Willlesden Green reversers normally they don't introduce them..... so should they?

And this begs the question as to whether it would then be logical to run Willesden reversers PRIOR to events for the same reasons outlined.

Its entirely possible that headways are affected by events involving large numbers of customers boarding at one particular location. In my old days I used to assist with planning for the Carnival, particularly in respect of how it affected us at Notting Hill Gate.

I also had a few other large crowd moves to organise such as Pride (in I think about 1996) which involved Mile End Station and a Blur concert there a few weeks previously.

The problem particularly with Pride & Blur was the need to shift large numbers of customers just before the system shut down. That meant we had to fill every train to its maximum level in order to stand half a chance of clearing the crowds. Leaving customers outside after the last trains had departed was not an option.

So we analysed everything, including things like the ability of the stairwells to handle volumes of passengers, at what speed and so on. This included the theoretical & practical maximums of a 92 stock train. Including how long it would take a train to fill. I have no doubt LUL have done this process for every station affected by the Olympic games. And I suspect in a lot more detail.

In the case of Carnival, loading and unloading dramatically increases dwell times as would be expected. In addition Train Operators had to approach and depart the platforms at busy times at Caution speed so as to avoid dragging any passengers into the tunnel. All this significantly held up the service.

So returning to Mile End... Of course that meant we had to hold up the service while we filled the trains. This caused significant blocking back which we anticipated. Not a problem that late at night as in both cases we did not have any other immediate concerns. Other than holding up last trains on other connecting lines.

So in the case of the Jubilee I suspect they have to concentrate on keeping the headways regular at the Stratford end in order to shift customers before close of traffic.

I would also suspect that LUL have factored in extra trains to deal with the anticipated crowds. So perhaps theres a degree of flexibility in how these trains are deployed. The dangers are perhaps not seeing the whole picture. Something I expect the Jubilee Control Centre would have been able to.

Of course it was just a guess!

It's worth pointing out that Willesden Green reversers were formerly much more popular because trains couldn't fit into Stanmore - with the third platform that had eased somewhat; however I note in the new TT that there is a marked increase in WG reversers, presumably to keep a return flow of trains through the central area - likewise quite a few more North Greenwich reversers.

The difference between a Willesden Green and a Wembley Park reverser is obviously that WG reversers head back east about 20 minutes earlier than WmPk - this may or may not have a bearing on drivers hours (it has been a while since I've seen a duty book for the Jubilee). Possibly not as the TT falls into a regular booked pattern; although I note a lot of stand time notes in some unusual places in this TT : the 1718¾ off Stanmore is booked to stand at Canons Park, Queensbury, Kingsbury, Wembley Park, Neasden, Dollis Hill and Willesden Green (the pattern does change if the train is creeping up on a reverser or not, although I suspect know that isn't the entire story).

After having a quick ponder on my notes, my best guess for the current situation is:

Between Willesden Green and North Greenwich the line is (I think) timetabled at near maximum capacity - beyond these stations the service is deliberately 'thinned' to allow platform occupation time at the terminals (what was referred to as 'Terminal Allowance' in the good old days of planning for the New Works programme) - there are now more trains out in service. Look at the following extract from a recent Jubilee WTT - the salient bits are the platform numbers at Stanmore:



Look at the time elapsed between the first departure from platform 3 and then the second arrival. 0908¼ - 0910¼. In that passage of time across the galley there has been a reverse at both Willesden Green and Wembley Park - with the enhanced service trains physically cannot fit. The reverse is true albeit to a lesser degree between North Greenwich and Stratford.

The frequency east of Willesden won't be the same. Travelling beyond Willesden to Wembley takes longer so the trains will not be in position for their eastbound journeys. The only way that there are enough trains to provide a 30tph service through the centre of town (the weekday timetable this week has a "3rd peak") is to reverse some at Willesden Green. Reversing the service only at Wembley and Stanmore would cost more trains that aren't available.

Also if this is done ad-hoc to deal with, say, a Met line failure it will put a number of crews in the wrong place and create a delay elsewhere.

Having said that there is perhaps an argument for a special timetable for some event days that pushes trains through to Wembley in place of Stratford but during the Olympics with so many events and passenger flows across the whole line doing this would just be robbing one flow to support another. Although there were c61,000 at Wembley there were over 100,000 due to leave events at the other end of the line plus about 15,000 at Horse Guards.

Finally since you weren't there you don't know whether the Jubilee and Met trains that were at Wembley, although busy, were clearing the crowds adequately and thus the Willesden trains were not needed as extra capacity. That's the problem with taking an isolated view rather than a whole line view as Dean mentions.

During the return traffic period, the limiting factor is the number of trains that can get through Wembley. In my experience any train calling at Wembley during a return traffic period is subject to an extended dwell time at that station, which actually results in trains queuing up to get into the platform(s) there. This leaves no scope for increasing the number of trains serving the station.

How about after Wembley events, Wembley Park reversers for Wembley traffic and other passengers use services from Stanmore, which pass through Wembley Park southbound without stopping? (double back via Neasden cross-platform if needed!)


(sort of idea you get when you haven't quite got to bed yet...)

I don't think there were any regular WG reversers. Remember that the Bakerloo had a half service to each branch north of Baker Street, so in effect this would be a train every 4 minutes in the peaks. Reversing trains at WG would have meant an 8 minute gap north of there, so not ideal. I'm pretty sure that there were only Wembley Park reversers scheduled, with WG and West Hampstead used to recover late running or during service suspensions.

I have had a look through my WTT notes for the Bakerloo from its opening to Stanmore in late-1939 through to when the Jubilee took over on 1/5/79. I can find no reference to any scheduled Bakerloo reversers at Willesden Green, although the Met certainly did prior to the opening of the Bakerloo, but up to what date I don't know.

Having then checked my notes for the Jubilee Line from 1/5/79, it says "It also brings into regular use the reversing sidings at Willesden Green and West Hampstead on Mondays to Fridays ....".

That said, as Bakerloo Line Controller in the 1970s, I sometimes used both sidings for "service requirements" (late running, and to put a dud train that needed to be got out of the way quickly).

If I remember correctly, Willesden Green cabin then wasn't open all the time in the 1970s, whereas Finchley Road (which controlled West Hampstead) was, so this was the favourite to be used, rather than scrabble round to see if there was a signalman available at Willesden Green.

If I have missed any booked / timetabled Willesden Green reversers 1939-1979, I would be interested to know.

However, West Hampstead siding was used by Bakerloo trains on Christmas Day from 14.00 from 1962 and all-day from 1973 to 1975, the intermediate stations (that were open!) being served by the Met. For this there had to be a signalman at Willesden Green to cross the northbound Mets over between there and Dollis Hill !!

When the Bakerloo opened to Stanmore in November 1939, there remained a 15-minute rush hours only all stations Met service between Wembley Park and Finchley Road, running via the Bakerloo. These workings were officially discontinued from WTT 78 of 31/3/41.

Will do

You might be digging to Australia