Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
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Post by Phil on Jul 12, 2012 18:04:49 GMT
Tried to see if anyone has started a similar thread, but the ever-helpful search facility comes up with nowt....... Programme was on Channel 5 wednesday, but is repeated Friday (13th) at 1900 (Channel 5). Good basic programme in teh usual vein of C5 engineering documentaries. Excellent description not only on the building of Canary Wharf stations but also things like how (and why) they built one of the stations on the Paris Metro on the surface then gradually sunk it into the earth............. Worth a watch if you're that way inclined .
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
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Post by Colin on Jul 12, 2012 18:47:21 GMT
It wasn't a new programme - I saw it a few months ago!!
There was also a similar version on one of the discovery channels at the same time last night.
I can't remember which one it was now, but one of them showed 09ts in build in the factory.......then it being delivered by road and lowered in through the whole at Waterloo.......major faux pas!!
Yes, those of us here know a bit more than most, but neither were particularly well made IMO.
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Post by 1018509 on Jul 12, 2012 19:47:11 GMT
Talking of the 92 stock (or not) for the Waterloo & City Line, wasn't there a whole programme made about lowering the cars into the depot?
Is it an urban myth or a fact that the majority of the cars had been lowered before it was realised that they were in the wrong order?
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Jul 12, 2012 19:48:37 GMT
Are they made for UK audiences though? They seem to have an air of being a co-production with a USA group; little bits of US terminology being dropped here and there and such.
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Post by mikebuzz on Jul 12, 2012 21:13:40 GMT
The programme seemed to be suggesting the London tube system had to wait till the NYC Subway opened in 1904 before it got electric traction. So was it steam before then? ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 21:43:20 GMT
I can't remember which one it was now, but one of them showed 09ts in build in the factory....... Whilst talking about Jubilee line trains if I remember!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 21:56:03 GMT
The programme seemed to be suggesting the London tube system had to wait till the NYC Subway opened in 1904 before it got electric traction. So was it steam before then? ;D In part, yes. The Sub Surface Lines (Metropolitan and Metropolitan District Railways were steam from opening (from 1863 on), electrified mainly in about 1905 (north from Harrow later), one or two bits slightly earlier. But any comment about waiting until the NY subway gives the wrong impression, electrification came when the technology and time were right, without reference to developments elsewhere. The tube lines were electric from the start, and the earliest pre dated the SSL electrification. (City & South London, Waterloo & City, and Central London Railways were IIRC all pre 1904).
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Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
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Post by Phil on Jul 13, 2012 6:05:19 GMT
I can't remember which one it was now, but one of them showed 09ts in build in the factory.......then it being delivered by road and lowered in through the whole at Waterloo.......major faux pas!! Yes - inaccuracy in detail, but the actual shots of the 92ts being lowered in after refresh was great to watch - I'd not seen it from that angle before. The programme seemed to be suggesting the London tube system had to wait till the NYC Subway opened in 1904 before it got electric traction. So was it steam before then? ;D But any comment about waiting until the NY subway gives the wrong impression, electrification came when the technology and time were right, without reference to developments elsewhere. In part, yes. The Sub Surface Lines (Metropolitan and Metropolitan District Railways were steam from opening (from 1863 on), electrified mainly in about 1905 (north from Harrow later), one or two bits slightly earlier. Actually they explained that bit in great detail (but it wasn't esay to listen to). They made it clear that the great leap was multiple unit control that was the changer. CSLR and central were indeed electrical from the start but used (very heavy) locos which had to run round at each end every time. And yes, the Met and district WERE steam until the Sprague system was advenced enough to apply it here - after a few dabbles testing third rail vs overhead.
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Post by grahamhewett on Jul 13, 2012 8:28:27 GMT
mikebuzz- and indeed, multiple unit operation came in here before NYC (W&C 1898, Central 1903 or the Liverpool Overhead in 1893). Graham H
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Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
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Post by Phil on Jul 13, 2012 9:35:19 GMT
Sorry, I might have been a bit confusing.
The W&C was always unit stock, though it appears that in the early days only one motor car was powered at any one time - power cables over the top of the trains only came later it seems (all a bit vague though).
The CSLR had locos until the advent of Standard stock in 1923 (which was delayed owing to the need to widen the running tunnels to the Yerkes gauge), though a motor car train was run as a (not successful) experimental train in 1899. Indeed the locos had extensive rebuilds as late as 1912.
The Central had locos until the first multiple unit stock in 1903.
The others were the Yerkes tube lines, multiple from the start, from 1906 onwards.
Source - J.Graeme Bruce
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Jul 13, 2012 14:06:05 GMT
RT: I have to agree with you there. There was one thing though they could do which today seems impossible at times to master; risk. Financial, political, and physical.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2012 0:01:27 GMT
Having now watched the programme, and checked references...
Yes, MU operation ('distributed power') were a great advance: but whether it was the great enabler claimed (or at least implied) by the programme I have my doubts: that was electrification per se - even without mu the steam lines would have been electrified, and more electric tubes built - not as good, and probably not so many, but they would have come.
Sprague's mu system was developed in 1897, and was initially used that year in the electrification of the South Side Rapid Transit - part of the Chicago L: by that time two other parts of it were already electrically worked.
The Waterloo & City was always mu (from opening in 1898), but had power lines along the train - a system which did not exactly find favour with the authorities. A similar system was used in the early days on the Paris Metro. The advantage of Sprague's (and other systems) was that they used low voltage, low current control circuits, with no need for power cables along the train.
New York's first subway was not opened until autumn 1904; by which time the Sprague system was already in use in London on the CLR and the GN&CR, and on one of the the MDR's experimental A stock trains - the other used an alternative system from Westinghouse, who also provided the mu equipment for the Mersey Railway electrification of 1903.
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Post by siriami on Jul 14, 2012 9:43:24 GMT
And to raise another point about this programme - I always thought that the tunnelling shield was invented By Marc Brunel for the Thames Tunnel, and only later adapted by Greathead (who was given all the credit in the documentary).
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gantshill
I had to change my profile pic!
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Post by gantshill on Jul 15, 2012 19:04:09 GMT
I'm just catching up with this programme. I'm finding the tone quite hard to deal with. Don't even ask what I thought of the computer graphic of Big Ben and its tower falling over.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2012 19:23:50 GMT
I'm just catching up with this programme. I'm finding the tone quite hard to deal with. Don't even ask what I thought of the computer graphic of Big Ben and its tower falling over. That was hillarious, best thing about the whole programme ;D On a serious note I liked the engineer showing how the grouting and traction motors + gradients worked with models but I thought the whole thing in general was poorly edited and I didn't like the way it focused about half of its time on other metro systems (and office lifts!? seriously?) rather than LU which was what the programe was supposed to be about! In general I try and stay away from those Americanised, poorly researched, b*!!ocks filled documentary's and this one was no exception really...
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Post by mikebuzz on Jul 16, 2012 20:29:45 GMT
The programme seemed to be suggesting the London tube system had to wait till the NYC Subway opened in 1904 before it got electric traction. So was it steam before then? ;D In part, yes. The Sub Surface Lines (Metropolitan and Metropolitan District Railways were steam from opening (from 1863 on), electrified mainly in about 1905 (north from Harrow later), one or two bits slightly earlier. Hence my reference to the tube system. ;D I thought Liverpool, Newcastle and London (W&C, CLR, GNCR and district) all had MU's by 1904. The sprague system started off in Chicago AFAIK, which was Yerkes' old stomping ground. I see the point has been made elsewhere. And to raise another point about this programme - I always thought that the tunnelling shield was invented By Marc Brunel for the Thames Tunnel, and only later adapted by Greathead (who was given all the credit in the documentary). Yes, I thought about that during the program. Must have forgotten when I started thinking about Greathead application for the Tower Subway which also got missed out.
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