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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2012 14:35:54 GMT
Hello! My first post to the site might I add! Hello!
Anyhow - I start with a question about Hammersmith Station Eastbound.
Yesterday my friend sent me a picture of two 73's - one on Platform Two but another on Platform One. So I figured, yes, there must have been problems up the line so they'll just put the 73 from platform one onto the correct "course?" when it departs Hammersmith.
But this is where it gets weird. My friend is adamant that that the CSA on the platform announced that the Piccadilly line train on platform one will be terminating at West Kensington.
Could this be possible?
Toby
p.s - when I figure out how - i'll attach the image!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2012 14:36:58 GMT
* I meant platform 3 and platform 4 - my mistake  * |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2012 15:18:30 GMT
Very possible but very, very rare. Picc trains can be sent to reverse at West Kensington, but as drivers are not trained for the move they would need a pilot (someone trained in the area) to travel with them.
The reason I say rare is because in 6 years of being a driver on the Piccadilly I've only heard of it happening once, although I believe in the past it was a booked move.
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Jun 14, 2012 15:23:16 GMT
I'm sure around 1970 it was a daily move in the timetables, early a.m., and all the stock had "WEST KENSINGTON" on the blinds. On another thread on these boards a few months ago, there were several postings about it.
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Post by grahamhewett on Jun 14, 2012 19:01:27 GMT
castlebar - the April 1986 WTT still showed two Picc trains reversing there. One (317D) started ecs from Northfields at 0449 and reversed at WK (0506/0511) continuing in service to Heathrow. The other (323D) had started as a staffer at Uxbridge at 04.46 to Acton, continued as ecs to West Ken (a 05.28 1/2) and then departed 05.33 all stations to Acton Town and Heathrow. These seemed to be the only two WK reversers that were scheduled by then. GH
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Jun 14, 2012 19:09:28 GMT
Ah, but if they were ecs, they wouldn't have shewn W Ken on the blinds.
W Ken was definitely on the blinds around 1968/70 so must have been service journeys unless as an emergency reverser. I'm sure they were very early journeys before Heathrow extension
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Post by rsdworker on Jun 14, 2012 20:52:49 GMT
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Post by alfie on Jun 14, 2012 21:09:15 GMT
It's Wikipedia.
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Post by causton on Jun 15, 2012 0:26:54 GMT
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Post by crusty54 on Jun 15, 2012 5:13:16 GMT
dates back to when Lillie Bridge was the Piccadilly Line depot.
A couple of trains did reverse in the early morning until the 1980s.
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Post by v52gc on Jun 15, 2012 8:09:24 GMT
The DVA on the 73s can announce West Ken as destination/station but not display it or use it as part of a route.
Pic drivers are still shown the route without actually doing it and should refresh their knowledge it but I'm sure 90% of drivers doing the move might want a pilot.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Jun 15, 2012 8:17:39 GMT
ISTR there were a couple of late trains that reversed at WK as well in the 70s and 80s as well as the early/staff trains. As Crusty says it dates back to the GNPBR depot was Lillie Bridge!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2012 16:37:13 GMT
Wow! Thank you very much for your responses. Given the rarity of it then I'm assuming it was a mistake by the CSA.
That said, I do recall seeing a 73' at Earls Court once... on a district Line platform! This was in '04 or '05 I think.
Now going slightly off topic, if the train gets "lost" if it were and ends up in a place not even the driver as been trained on or even seen for the matter, would he/she still be allowed to drive the train if a Pilot is present? Or would the pilot need to take over completely?
Toby
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Post by v52gc on Jun 17, 2012 19:52:46 GMT
The driver of the train is the driver.
They are responsible for it and would continue to drive if the train got 'lost' :-)
A pilot would be required to advise the driver on signals, gradients, things like that.
Tbh I think drivers should roughly know what to do if they would get lost, albeit with a pilot, as in where to reverse at least.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 18, 2012 10:02:14 GMT
Wasn't it around 1990/1 they stopped running to West Ken?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2012 11:19:45 GMT
I posted the details of the West Kensington reversers some time ago in another thread. As I´m away at the moment, I haven´t the time to check and fine it, unless anyone has the chance to look back.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 18, 2012 11:25:32 GMT
Wasn't it around 1990/1 they stopped running to West Ken? Indeed - WTT 27 that came in on 28/10/91 was the death knell of the West Ken Picc trains. (sorry, should have picked this up earlier in the thread, have been busy with county-wide ¼ peals). I've also done a bit of digging around for reganorak's posting, which I remembered was around somewhere (much like reg, who's off with his trusty ABC): Admins/Mods - please move or merge this if you feel necessary. Somewhere recently I read a question about Picc Line West Kensington reversers at the extremes of the day, as to when they began and ended. When Lillie Bridge depot 'closed' to the Picc Line (13.03.33 - i.e. when the line was extended east from Arnos Grove to Enfield West and westwards from Northfields to Hounslow West) there were one or two West Kensington reversers on Mondays to Saturdays. West Kensington reversers on Sundays did not start until 08.10.44. This needs a little further explanation. From 26.05.40 most Sunday services started earlier from around 06.00 to help the war effort (i.e. to get people to and from work etc earlier than normal). This continued until 08.10.44, from when Sunday services reverted to pre-war Sunday times. The exception was the Uxbridge branch of the Picc, on which trains ran on to West Kensington to reverse. Generalising, West Kensington trains were either empty, 'staff' or passenger. They were finally withdrawn from WTT No.27 of 28.10.91. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 8:31:22 GMT
Underground Guide Summer 1962 shows the following in the District Line timetables:
Weekdays Page 44 Picc dep W Ken 4.49 doesn't stop at Barons Court to Hounslow West arr 5.22. Also departure 5.18 this time stopping at Barons Court arr Rayners Lane 5.50. First District westbound passes W Ken not until 5.49 which is the 5.43 from South Kensington.
Sundays Page 47 Picc dep W Ken 7.00 to Uxbridge arr 7.41 then another departure 7.16 to Uxbridge arr 8.00.
All the above call all stations Hammersmith to Acton Town but there are no corresponding arrivals at West Ken in the evening.
However, on the Piccadilly line timetables there are the following:
Weekdays page 130 Picc dep Hounslow West 4.40 arr W Ken 5.03. This is shown as not stopping at Barons Court but there is a District Line train in a previous column dep Acton 4.38 to Earls Court which is marked as stopping at Barons Court to set down only. This latter train is also in the District Line t/t p36 as setting down only at Stamford Brook and Ravenscourt Park but the Picc is absent from the table. The next District is half an hour later.
Sundays p 132. Picc depart Rayners Lane 6.20 arr W Ken 6.50. Column note says train stops all stations Acton to Hammersmith. This train is absent from the District t/t. There is a bizarre entry in the next column which must be a misprint. There is a column note saying to W Ken arr 7.11 but with times Gloucester Road 6.59 Knightsbridge 7.00 (!) then next entry is Arnos Grove 7.52 stops all stations Cockfosters arr 7.59. Could be that the column note refers to 6.26 from Uxbridge arr Hammersmith 7.04 but not shown as going any further.
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Post by madandy on Sept 12, 2012 0:49:08 GMT
Why on earth to train drivers need pilots for something like a hort hp to West Kensington.
I, along with millions of others, have driven on the roads for decades without having any accidents. Many of the roads are strange first time roads with first time hazards. We are confronted by traffic signals and slopes for the first time. We negotiate controlled and uncontrolled junctions with other traffic approaching from all directions without warning along with other moving hazards like pedestrians and cyclists. There is no signalling system to warn, let alone protect us from being within crashing distance of the vehicle in front and we are responsible for our own steering and the direction we take at junctions along with taking note of signs
We all manage this without a pilot or navigator.
To drive a train from Hammersmith to Wesr Kensington does not require steering or checking a map or Sat-nav. There are no pedestrians or cyclists or other trains cutting across your path and the signalling will prevent you from getting too close to the train in front and you will be able to see things like stations and slopes, slopes, I might add, which are minor inclines compared to the roads.
Why on earth does that need a pilot?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2012 8:09:01 GMT
Well if you don't stop in the right place at West Kensington you won't be able to go back west! Then to know which signal and where it is.
Driving a car is not the same. You can turn around in many more places for starters! You don't get a number of traffic lights in front of you either and have to work out which one applies to you first of all and then which one you would need to go to where you want!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Sept 12, 2012 9:35:31 GMT
To add more bones to rbisko's answer.....
How would a driver know what the reversal procedure is at West Kensington? Is it the same as other places?
Which signal do you stop at before changing ends? Is there a stopping mark rather than a signal? If so, what does the stopping mark look like and where is it?
Which signal are you then looking for to take you back the other way?
Which points are involved in the move, and which way should they be laying?
What is the line speed in the area, and particularly what is the permitted speed over the points involved in the move?
Are any of the signals involved in the move approach or speed controlled?
Are all of the signals straight red/greens, or are there three aspect signals to be aware of?
Is there a plunger to let the signaller know you are ready to depart? Do I need to telephone the signaller or contact them by radio? Will they contact me?
Is my train the correct length for the move?
All of the above aside, is there a special procedure other than the standard one because my stock is different to those that normally reverse there?
Unless you've had formal training, or a pilot to show you the way, how would you be able to answer any of these questions?
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Post by peterc on Sept 12, 2012 12:37:59 GMT
Have them printed on a piece of paper?
The route knowledge requirements on the railways are and admirable safety measure not matched by haulage operators on the roads but are there ways in which they could be eased without compromising safety?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Sept 12, 2012 13:45:11 GMT
So I'm asked to reverse a train at a place I've not been trained at or ever seen before and I say "sorry guv, I don't know that move. Can I have a piece of paper that tells me how its done please"?
Let's say, for arguments sake, I've just left Tower Hill eastbound and am delayed before crossing Minories Junction. The controller calls me up and informs me that there's a one under at Aldgate East thus I must now divert to Liverpool Street & reverse.
If I had that for real I would be asking for a Pilot as although I have a fair idea of the move [I've travelled through there as a passenger & I've seen points at the other end of the station], I don't know the limits of the move.
So I ask for a pilot and a piece of paper is produced at Aldgate. That's all well and good but how long will it take me to read and properly digest it? Who is going to check that I fully understand what it says? What if I don't understand what it says?
Isn't far quicker and simpler to provide a pilot that can show the way and have the move completed with the minimum of delay and fuss?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 12, 2012 18:33:49 GMT
Isn't far quicker and simpler to provide a pilot that can show the way and have the move completed with the minimum of delay and fuss? Whilst I would agree that a piece of paper which may or may not be understood (or indeed read) is no substitute for a properly-trained pilot, you overstate your case by suggesting it will be quicker and simpler to provide a pilot - you can't print them out on demand! |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Sept 12, 2012 18:43:45 GMT
No, but they can be sent by Taxi if required (LU has a contract with a black cab firm). And who's to say you'll be in a platform when you require the said information - a Picc at Hangar Lane junction being sent to Ealing Broadway for example. Maybe there should be a printer installed at the signal. I'm not being serious of course.
Station Supervisors can act as a pilot if they are familiarised in the area concerned, as can any duty manager. In my example there's also the potential for a Met or H&C/Circle driver to be knocking about.
madandy asked why a pilot is required. I feel I've made the point well enough!!
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Sept 13, 2012 19:35:51 GMT
It used to be a Ministry of Transport requirement that a driver is familiar with the roads they have to work on. The driver has to sign a form every so often to say he retains that knowledge. If he hasn't worked that road for 6 months, then he is entitled to a pilot/conductor who IS familiar with the road.
It is not the driver being awkward, it is a legal requirement. Anything goes wrong when the driver makes a move he hasn't signed for, and he could be on a manslaughter charge.
An example from my BR days, going into Crewe DED with a Rugby driver; came off the road, dewired, chaos. there were spring hand points to be held over to allow the move. the Rugby driver had been OUT of the DED many times, but wasn't aware of the spring points for going INTO the DED! Luckily no-one was injured, just his reputation.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2013 17:45:58 GMT
When I was Picc traincrew in the early eighties at Arnos Grove we did the Uxbridge to West Ken staff/empty run in the morning.
We were also given `route learning` for Ealing Broadway and Rayners Lane to Harrow on the Hill just incase of a wrong routeing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2013 20:22:58 GMT
Interesting this note - I thought that the 6 car Piccadilly trains were the same length as (but slightly narrower than) 6 car District trains - should they be able to fit correctly in the same platforms??
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Post by crusty54 on Jan 20, 2013 21:52:35 GMT
Interesting this note - I thought that the 6 car Piccadilly trains were the same length as (but slightly narrower than) 6 car District trains - should they be able to fit correctly in the same platforms?? The stopping position for the platforms just might not be the same position as that needed to reverse the train. |
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Post by andypurk on Jan 20, 2013 22:17:31 GMT
An example from my BR days, going into Crewe DED with a Rugby driver; came off the road, dewired, chaos. there were spring hand points to be held over to allow the move. the Rugby driver had been OUT of the DED many times, but wasn't aware of the spring points for going INTO the DED! Luckily no-one was injured, just his reputation. And more recently there was the derailment at Bletchley, where a Virgin Trains driver thought he was continuing on the slow line, rather than crossing to the fast, via a 15 mph crossover he had apparently never used. So, despite his training, an accident occurred as the driver was asked to undertake an unusual maneuver. |
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