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Post by d7666 on May 25, 2012 12:36:35 GMT
I understand yesterday (Thursday) a Acton Town - Ealing Broadway one train shuttle was operated by "the Picadilly Line" (thats how it was reported around mid-day) to relieve District Line signals failure disruption. I assume this was 73 stock. Does this happen often ? (73 to Ealing Broadway I mean, not District Line disruption)
Was not sure if this should have gone under Piccadilly Line or District Line, I put it here as I think the use of Picc stock to non Picc destination is the important point.
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Nick
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 25, 2012 13:08:09 GMT
If it did happen, a District driver would have been required to 'pilot' the train as Piccadilly drivers are not road trained to Ealing Broadway.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2012 13:14:49 GMT
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Post by alfie on May 25, 2012 14:48:18 GMT
That second one 'Piccadilly Line trains are calling at Ealing Broadway throughout the summer due to the Olympics!' Oh dear.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2012 15:00:55 GMT
Reminds me of the jokes about District Dave and Hanger Lane junction, except this way its the other way round! ;D
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Post by d7666 on May 25, 2012 16:05:35 GMT
I knew it had happened yesterday, my wording was cautious. -- Nick |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 25, 2012 16:38:52 GMT
Very cautious!! Obviously it did occur.
Interesting though cos like I say, that Picc driver ought to have had a District driver piloting him (ie, showing the way) as Picc drivers aren't trained for trips to Ealing Broadway. Granted other grades can act as a pilot, but given the level of disruption I would have expected it was already "all hands to the pumps" and so it is quite reasonable to assume the only available pilot would indeed be a District driver.
Now if a District driver was available, why wasn't a D stock? Service control claimed they'd cancelled trains so why wasn't a D stock pulled out of Ealing Common depot?
Hmm....
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Post by d7666 on May 25, 2012 17:12:31 GMT
I do not know how these things work within LU, but, and this is a question, if say a Piccadilly t/op had recently transferred from the District, does that t/op retain knowledge / authority / whatever you call it these days to drive 73 stock until whatever time out or something else cuts in to expire that ability, or does it expire immediately on transfer ? Or the opposite scenario i.e. with respect to EAB route knowledge retention or expiry of a District t/op moving to the Picc.? I assume from responses so far this is an exceedingly rare occurence ?  at least it justified me reporting it  -- Nick |
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Post by br7mt on May 25, 2012 18:21:59 GMT
There was a hybrid 72 / 67TS train in Ealing Broadway just before mid-day today  I think there was a signal failure at Ealing Common yesterday, so perhaps D Stocks couldn't get in and out of the depot and the 73TS was available? Regards, Dan |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 26, 2012 9:10:30 GMT
I do not know how these things work within LU, but, and this is a question, if say a Piccadilly t/op had recently transferred from the District, does that t/op retain knowledge / authority / whatever you call it these days to drive 73 stock until whatever time out or something else cuts in to expire that ability, or does it expire immediately on transfer ? Or the opposite scenario i.e. with respect to EAB route knowledge retention or expiry of a District t/op moving to the Picc.? Knowledge is technically retained for six months - if a driver doesn't cover a route in that time they must ensure their knowledge is refreshed either by video, travelling over the route in a cab or physically walking through. Checks are made and drivers do have to sign to say their knowledge is up to date from time to time, but this does not extend to someone who has transferred to another line. So in this particular instance the Picc driver may well have said "I know the route as I used to be a District driver" - the problem is the relevant paperwork is only held by the District line; that driver's Piccadilly line governor's only have the drivers word that he/she is competent. If in doubt, a pilot is the only way forward. I assume from responses so far this is an exceedingly rare occurence ? at least it justified me reporting it Absolutely - this is as rare as it gets and is why I initially underlined my 'if' word. There was a hybrid 72 / 67TS train in Ealing Broadway just before mid-day today That is the Asset Inspection Train - see this thread, particularly posts 33 & 34.... I think there was a signal failure at Ealing Common yesterday, so perhaps D Stocks couldn't get in and out of the depot and the 73TS was available? Ealing Common depot also has an entrance/exit at the Acton Town end |
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Post by johnb2 on May 26, 2012 14:49:18 GMT
Could it be the reverse situation? A recently transferred District driver knowing '73 stock?
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Post by revupminster on May 26, 2012 17:49:59 GMT
A picc train on the district does seem to have got knickers in a twist. I hope it is not a sign of intransigence but a a precurser of flexibility of drivers. With S stock I would like to see some flexibility of a train that could go on the Uxbridge route or a H&C extended from Barking to Upminster or a circle going to wimbledon if the service needs it.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 26, 2012 19:45:14 GMT
Whilst S stock will bring more flexibility, that has to go hand in hand with how much we expect new drivers to learn & remember....as it is training time has been reduced with new trainees these days having to work very hard indeed.
More routes to learn would be the straw that breaks the camels back for those new trainees.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2012 19:48:22 GMT
There is quite a bit of flexibility by some drivers in this area.
It is for the driver of the train to determine if they want a pilot. They may traverse a section without if they are happy to do so.
Many Piccadilly drivers will run to Ealing Broadway if required (it's only two signals w/b and three e/b after all, a District signal is much the same as any other and there isn't much you can do wrong!).
Many District drivers will willingly traverse the Circle only route between Gloucester Road and High Street Kensington direct, if required.
Other District drivers have proceeded between Hangar Lane Junction and South Harrow or Acton Town to Northfields without a pilot. It's the drivers call. You are entitled to a pilot if you have not traversed, run adjacent to or been refreshed (self or otherwise) upon a move within the last 6 months but there is much difference between being entitled to a pilot and being restricted from running a route.
(If there is a request for a pilot for a route or move the driver should be familiar with. The delay in awaiting the pilot is attributable to the driver as a staff error.)
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2012 21:43:37 GMT
It could be that a Piccadilly driver was piloted for one trip, then if he was happy that he understood the route there's no reason why he couldn't repeat it on his own as many times as required.
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Post by 21146 on May 27, 2012 13:21:09 GMT
Surely NO ONE would transfer from the District TO the Piccadilly?
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Post by Dstock7080 on May 27, 2012 13:24:03 GMT
Surely NO ONE would transfer from the District TO the Piccadilly? There have been a few recently, who require "east-end" depots and accept Arnos Grove as being "east". |
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Post by rheostar on May 28, 2012 8:22:53 GMT
The Ealing Broadway - Acton Town shuttle was done as a 'spur of the moment thing' by Piccadilly line service control.
The District line was so broken they'd not had a train up to Ealing Broadway for over 40 minutes, with no prospect of getting one any time soon. Most of the District line trains were blocking back between Earl's Court and Whitechapel.
So the Piccadilly line stepped in to help get the customers from Ealing Broadway down to Acton Town.
It was a Piccadilly line driver with a DRM acting as a pilot with the train making five round trips in all.
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metman
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Post by metman on May 28, 2012 16:16:56 GMT
Sounds like a good plan. Well done control! |
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Post by ruislip on May 28, 2012 16:24:57 GMT
Were the trains used on this temporary shuttle borrowed from the regular Picc service?
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Post by rheostar on May 28, 2012 21:10:34 GMT
Were the trains used on this temporary shuttle borrowed from the regular Picc service? One service train was taken for a round trip, so the effect on the service was negligible. |
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Jun 15, 2012 8:23:53 GMT
Reminds me of the jokes about District Dave and Hanger Lane junction, except this way its the other way round! ;D The district Dave item about the Dr driver going to south Harrow is an absolute gem and needs to be resuscitated. It was the link to that gem that brought me to this site! "The Piccadilly drivers' smiles and waves get friendlier the nearer you get to south Harrow". ISTR the thread was attributed to Piccadilly Pilot. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2012 16:45:19 GMT
It was me that arranged for a Northfields - Arnos Grove service (T354) to be cancelled and used as said shuttle. No District driver acted as a pilot. A spare Piccadilly T/Op and DRM were sent over from Bollo House to work the shuttle for however long it was required. That day I worked every 3rd train via the local line, all stations to and from Hammersmith also.
There hadn't been a train to Ealing in a while so I thought why not ! It was arranged in about 5 minutes by choosing a train that would not have impacted heavily on gaps to the Piccadilly line and then put in place....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2012 16:50:55 GMT
Very cautious!! Obviously it did occur. Interesting though cos like I say, that Picc driver ought to have had a District driver piloting him (ie, showing the way) as Picc drivers aren't trained for trips to Ealing Broadway. Granted other grades can act as a pilot, but given the level of disruption I would have expected it was already "all hands to the pumps" and so it is quite reasonable to assume the only available pilot would indeed be a District driver. Now if a District driver was available, why wasn't a D stock? Service control claimed they'd cancelled trains so why wasn't a D stock pulled out of Ealing Common depot? Hmm.... Think they might have been slightly busy... bearing in mind that almost every train sat down at Earl's Court for an average of 8 minutes. Do you think it would make good sense to utilise a spare T/Op to do that or rather use him at to cover SMR's  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2012 9:26:02 GMT
I left the Picc as an I/O, and TfL in 2009. On a number of occasions I took a Picc train to Ealing Broadway. I'd already been down a couple of times on the front of a District and refreshed using video. And we had a driver, later an I/O who accepted the wrong signal at Rayners and had to go towards Wembley to reverse. Got a training plan and then the following week had to go there again as there was a signal failure and couldn't cross to the Picc or go back into the sidings. Swings and roundabouts. :-)
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Post by rheostar on Jul 19, 2012 14:29:55 GMT
The Piccadilly did it again today (Thursday, 19 July), a shuttle ran between Acton Town and Ealing Broadway for a couple of trips.  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 9:02:31 GMT
My father used to work near Hyde Park Corner travelling from Rayners Lane. Twice in the 1970's I recall his Piccadilly train accidently got routed to Ealing Broadway in the evening.
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at least it justified me reporting it 
