kabsonline
Best SSL Train: S Stock Best Tube Train: 92 Stock
Posts: 686
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Post by kabsonline on May 23, 2012 17:42:22 GMT
Hi again Sorry I've already started a thread for the 09s in the Victoria Line section Basically I want to see every passenger train in service on LU and would like to know basic train numberings for the following lines including any changes: Bakerloo (1972 Stock) Central (1992 Stock) Jubilee (1996 Stock) Northern (1995 Stock) Piccadilly (1973 Stock) Waterloo and City (1992 Stock) Thanks in advance for your help! This will really help me towards my task of seeing and going on every passenger train in service Kabsonline
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Post by alfie on May 23, 2012 18:24:02 GMT
D'oh..I've got completely the wrong idea here..I had posted about numbers of trains, i.e. TXXX..big embarassment.
The 1992 stocks on the Central Line could be a tricky one - do you mean only DMs, or every single car?
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kabsonline
Best SSL Train: S Stock Best Tube Train: 92 Stock
Posts: 686
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Post by kabsonline on May 23, 2012 18:53:45 GMT
Ok, this is a newish idea so I may sound silly here cos I've got no idea of train numbers on most lines. I assumed there would be an order of some sort. For example of the A Stock two cars share the same end number. For example 5008/6008 or 5115/6115. Even though they have been mixed theres still a rough order. Is this not the case for other lines?
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Post by alfie on May 23, 2012 18:56:12 GMT
It is the case for the D Stocks (7xxx, 17xxx, 8xxx) and the C Stocks (5xxx and 6xxx, obviously not the A Stock numbers) but I have no clue about the tube stocks, apart from the most un-useful pieces about the Central Line 1992 stocks - the front two cars are always 91xyz and 92xyz, and then I don't know about the middle cars, especially since there are some middle cabs running around. Hopefully one of the Central Line T/Ops will be along to educate us.. That's why I asked only DMs or every single car I'll leave it to those in the know.
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Post by jardine01 on May 23, 2012 19:01:18 GMT
I always thought that for example 96 007 this would mean 96 for year of manufacture and 07 for the train number is this correct? Or how can you tell which train number it is in the fleet?
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 23, 2012 19:40:03 GMT
Lots of data hereIt is the case for most stocks, starting with the R stock, that the last two digits (usually three) match within a unit, or are odd/even pairs as on the A stock. as a rule: On the tube stock 1956/59/62 stock were numbered: DMs were 1xxx, ts were 2xxx, ndms were 9xxx, as foillows: 1xxx- 2xxx- 9xxy-1xxy (with xx being even and xy being the next odd number) 1960/67/72/83 stock had/have DMs numbered 3xxx and Ts 4xxx 1960 stock: originally 30xx-40xx-40xy-30xy (with xx being even and xy being the next odd number) - later had 900 added to each number to make space for the 1967 stock, later still had the standard stock trailers replaced with a 1938 stock trailer with a random 49xx number) 1967 stock: 30xx-40xx-41xx-31xx 1972 Stock: 32xx-42xx- 43xx-33xx/34xx-45xx-35xx 1983 stock: 36xx-46xx-37xx 1973 stock 1xx-5xx-3xx or 2xx-6xx-4xx (A end units have odd numbers, D end are even) 8xx-6xx-8xy (double-enders, with xx being even and xy being the next odd number) 1992 Stock 91xxx-92xxx (end units) 93xxx-92xxx (middle units) 655xx-675xx-675xz-655xz (W&C units - xx is odd, xz is the next even number) 1995 stock 51xxx-52xxx-53xxx-53xxy-52xxy-51xxy 1996 stock 960xx-962xx-964xx+964xy-966xy-962xy-960xy 961xx-963xx-965xx+965xy-967xy-963xy-961xy (deicing triailers are 968xx or 969xx) A stock 5xxx-6xxx-6xxy-5xxy (from x0xx to x2xx) C stock 5xxx-6xxx (from x5xx to x7xx) D stock 7xxx-17xxx-8xxx (A end even, D end odd) 75xx-175xx-75xy (double ended) R stock: A end DMs were 21xxx, D end DMs were 22xxx, NDMs were 23xxx, and the third digit indicated position in the train thus: originally 211xx-232xx-233xx-234xx / 235yy-226yy eight car trains were made by adding a second D end unit. Later all trains were formed of seven cars, by reforming the 4 car A end units with either two "232xx" cars or none, and running the resulting 5- or 3-car A end units with one or two D end units respectively, so the simple numbering system broke down.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 23, 2012 21:16:24 GMT
I always thought that for example 96 007 this would mean 96 for year of manufacture and 07 for the train number is this correct? Or how can you tell which train number it is in the fleet? That only works for 96 stock (and the NDMs of 92 stock)!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2012 22:01:17 GMT
You could also get a copy of London Underground Rolling Stock by Brian Hardy, which contains a full list of every car, and mark them with an x as you go along. The one I have sitting here has 67 stock, but no 09. I'm not really sure if there's a later edition of it.
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Post by astock5000 on May 24, 2012 1:24:10 GMT
You could also get a copy of London Underground Rolling Stock by Brian Hardy, which contains a full list of every car, and mark them with an x as you go along. The one I have sitting here has 67 stock, but no 09. I'm not really sure if there's a later edition of it. The most recent edition was published in 2002. It's a useful book to have, but if you don't want to mark the units in the book you can write down the relevant car numbers onto a piece of paper and put them into a spreadsheet when you get home. The following can save time when doing this (see norbitonflyer's post for the full numbering system): Sorry I've already started a thread for the 09s in the Victoria Line section Basically I want to see every passenger train in service on LU and would like to know basic train numberings for the following lines including any changes: Bakerloo (1972 Stock) These and several other types run with two units coupled, so you only need one number from each unit. E.g. (these examples are probably not current formations) 3545-4545-3445 + 3399-4399-4299-3299 Write down: 3545 + 3299 These are the only trains on the system where you need four numbers. E.g. 91059-92059 + 92160-93160 + 92024-93024 + 92265-91265 Write down: 91059 + 93160 + 93024 + 91265
Jubilee (1996 Stock) Northern (1995 Stock) With these you also only need the numbers of the DM cars - with 96 stock especially that makes it easier as otherwise it's possible to get confused between 960xx and 961xx - note that while several 1995TS trains are formed of consecutive units (e.g. 51523 + 51524) this is not always the case. Also apparently there are a couple of 1996TS cars with the wrong numbers.
E.g. 96114-96314-96514 + 96503-96703-96303-96103
Write down: 96114 + 96103
E.g. 891-690-890 + 342-542-142
Write down: 891 + 142
Waterloo and City (1992 Stock) E.g. 65507-67507 + 67508-65508
Write down: 65507 [as it always runs with 65508]
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on May 24, 2012 16:32:34 GMT
Indeed. Though for various reasons block units were not adhered much atall, so the numbering rarely worked out even before the reformations to 7 cars. Similar can be said of the 38ts. Seem to recall reading somewhere that the second 232xx car added to an R stock 5 car unit had an 'A' stencilled to its number to denote the difference.
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kabsonline
Best SSL Train: S Stock Best Tube Train: 92 Stock
Posts: 686
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Post by kabsonline on May 27, 2012 12:21:38 GMT
Thanks for the answers so far. Just to clarify, I'm currently working through the 96 Stock so far. If I write them out as 96X01 for example, what number do they go up to and is this correct?
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Post by grahamhewett on May 27, 2012 15:00:37 GMT
kabsonlineBut be careful if you want to clear the entire fleet - as you will see from the Hardy book, some stock has been renumbered to keep it within the set pattern. (It's not as bad as the Aldenham system of allocating bus numbers after overhaul which could - and did - end up with two vehicles bearing the same fleet number standing beside each other; at least, I think it isn't as bad - certainly some BR works renumbered stock on overhaul so that vehicles going through the works swapped running numbers; they weren't supposed to, but they did... Whether Acton had such nefarious habits, others may know) Graham H
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 27, 2012 15:36:56 GMT
Thanks for the answers so far. Just to clarify, I'm currently working through the 96 Stock so far. If I write them out as 96X01 for example, what number do they go up to and is this correct? Square Wheels and Wikipedia both say there are 63 trains and therefore 126 units, with the DMs numbered 96001 to 96126. Odd numbers - east-facing D end (4-car) sets Even numbers -west-facing A end (3 car) sets Most Underground trains are made up of two units, so the DM at each end of the train will be enough to identify the whole set- for a few, one DM will be enough on its own. Only C stock (3 x 2-car) and 1992 stock (4 x 2 car) trains are made up of more than two units, requiring a number collector to look at the middle of the train as well. Renumberings: my 1993 edition of Brian Hardy's book lists a few, but most of these relate to stock since withdrawn; Most renumberings were due to reforming of damaged units. An interesting exception is the remedial work carried out on the 1962 stock. The 1959 stock had been commandeered by the Central when first built, and run as eight car trains. When the 1959 stock transferred to the Picc, the extra trailers were then formed into the 1962 stock. Consequently they were older than the rest of the train and needed more work done on them during the midlife refurbishment. They thus got reshuffled and were renumbered to match the unkits they now found themselves in. 1967/72 stock reformed to make several extra 1967 stock units Current 1973 stock set 896/696/897 was originally cars 114/688/889. (888 had been damaged by fire: 514 and 314 never entered service but have been used for various experiments and as a source of spares: 514 became the track recording car TRC666). A stock: Hardy lists ten cars (seven DMs and three trailers) as having been renumbered in consequence of reformations necessitated by various mishaps over the years. There have, I know been others since my editiuon of Hardy's book was published, notably the DMs 5606/5734 partnering the "C08" stock trailers, one of which (5606/6606 is a recycling of a number last used for a non-standard unit withdrawn in 1994) Note also that there have been two cars numbered 5585: the original C69 stock car having been replaced by a new car as part of the C77 build ..... the Aldenham system of allocating bus numbers after overhaul which could - and did - end up with two vehicles bearing the same fleet number standing beside each other This was because the fleet number belonged to the chassis, but was painted on the body - and the number plate was also fixed to the body. As bodies took longer to go through Aldenham than chassis did, it was rare for a body to leave on the same chassis that it had arrived on. The result could be that if a repainted bus happened to be parked next to one that had not yet been repainted, they could indeed both appear to have the same number.
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Post by Dstock7080 on May 27, 2012 16:08:13 GMT
Most Underground trains are made up of two units, so the DM at each end of the train will be enough to identify the whole set- for a few, one DM will be enough on its own. Only C stock (3 x 2-car) and 1992 stock (4 x 2 car) trains are made up of more than two units, requiring a number collector to look at the middle of the train as well. '09 Stock and S Stock only require 1 number for the whole train, as these are effectively 1 unit.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 27, 2012 16:34:46 GMT
'09 Stock and S Stock only require 1 number for the whole train, as these are effectively 1 unit. True also for the W&C stock
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Post by grahamhewett on May 27, 2012 17:19:30 GMT
norbitonflyerAldenham o/h renumbering - Indeed - and it led to awkward existential discussions amongst the bus spotting fraternity of the day as to what exactly was being collected/had been seen. I recall the final conclusion was that all one had spotted with any certainty was the actual physical stock number unless one swung under the halfcab canopy and clocked the body number... GH
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2012 20:12:37 GMT
For Crossrail, one suggestion for car numbering (as they might be block trains, based on the S stock), they could run 3x001 to 3x057 for the 57 trains required for the Crossrail line. 31001-32001-33001-34001-35001-36001-37001-38001-39001-30001 for the first train (the second digit being shorthand for the position in the train)...
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jul 26, 2012 21:05:08 GMT
Crossrail units will surely have to have numbers which do not overlap with other NR vehicles - even if they are TfL owned. the class 378 Overground units have 3xxxx numbers, so whatever is the next fleet (bakerloo/Picc replacement or Crossrail) is more likely to use 4xxxx numbers - although the 40xxx - 44xxx series are already in use by HSTs.
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