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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2012 23:06:21 GMT
Evening all, Sometime ago a friend and I were discussing the 1983 stock, and how it was a shame they were wasted in such a way. This led us onto a conversation about how they could have stayed in service, and saved LUL money, but would it have worked? Our idea was: Transfer the 72mkII stock from to the Northern to work with 72mkI stock The 1996TS could then have been ordered to replace the 1983TS as did happen Then owing to it's low priority and being not as overcrowded as the other lines plus their design flaws moved the 1983TS to work Bakerloo services, possibly with a few more 1983TS vehicles built. This way money could have been saved on not buying the 1996TS and the 1983TS could have been saved. Please give your opinions and any suggestions, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks Matt  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2012 23:38:34 GMT
Im sure the 83ts cars are too long for the Bakerloo
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2012 9:59:00 GMT
Probably for safe passenger service they were too long, but one did visit the Bakerloo when new and covered Stonebridge Park - London Road. Rumour has it that it was very 'tight' on the curves in London Road depot entrance!
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 10, 2012 16:42:43 GMT
So we are saving money on the 1995 stock? The problem with this (apart from the tight curves on the Bakerloo) is that 63 trains of 1972 stock would not be enough to work the Northern without help. The 1959 stock was life expired by 2000 and new trains would have been needed to bolster the 72s. Also the Victoria line fleet needed mark 1 cars for its own fleet so in reality the Northern Line fleet would have numbered 60 trains. It's a nice idea however.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2012 22:02:16 GMT
I was thinking all the 72TS together still wouldn't have been enough for a full service. Thanks for confirming.
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 11, 2012 22:15:37 GMT
It is interesting that in days gone by, having a mixed fleet of trains was less of a problem. The 76 trains of 1959 stock was ordered for the Piccadilly in 1957 with the 15 trains of 1938 stock included into the mix. I wonder what would have happened when the 1938 needed replacement? Was new stock for Heathrow envisaged as early as 1960?
One plan for the Northern was to rewire many of the 1938 stock trains an paint them silver so they could operate until the late 90s and be replaced with the 1959 stock - glad this plan was dropped!
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Post by t697 on Apr 12, 2012 5:12:46 GMT
Another point is that even if 83TS could run on the Bakerloo they would have been very poor in the peak with long station dwell times because of the narrow doorways and bad access and accomodation in the middle of the train because of the double middle cabs. 72TS does a much better job there and has slightly more overall passenger capacity.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2012 21:34:51 GMT
I expect it would been a technical jump too far for the 83TS to gone to Isle of Wight and at the time they had their new 38TS only for a short while.
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Post by t697 on Apr 12, 2012 22:55:14 GMT
I expect it would been a technical jump too far for the 83TS to gone to Isle of Wight and at the time they had their new 38TS only for a short while. If I had to run the IoW fleet, I don't think I'd want to take on the multitudinous weaknesses and complexity of 1983TS. I guess the narrow doorways and more seats would be good for the passengers there as dwell times can't really be critical. There were some good aspects to 1983TS, but so much about them just wasn't that good. |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Apr 13, 2012 14:06:09 GMT
I expect it would been a technical jump too far for the 83TS to gone to Isle of Wight and at the time they had their new 38TS only for a short while. 83ts was out-of-gauge for the IOW tunnels and curves. Too long. |
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Post by phillw48 on Apr 13, 2012 17:09:18 GMT
If the Epping-Ongar line had remained open 2 or 3 units could have been retained to work the shuttle service perhaps?
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Post by v52gc on Apr 14, 2012 9:19:07 GMT
I expect it would been a technical jump too far for the 83TS to gone to Isle of Wight and at the time they had their new 38TS only for a short while. 83ts was out-of-gauge for the IOW tunnels and curves. Too long. So if the 73ts go there they'll have a bit of work to make them fit? |
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 14, 2012 10:05:07 GMT
Pass. The 1983 stock are longer than the 1973 stock but I'm not sure of the clearences.
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Post by Tomcakes on Apr 14, 2012 20:47:16 GMT
I seem to remember at the time hearing that they were to be converted to supplement the Piccadilly service, once the '73 stock had been fully refurbished. If the Epping-Ongar line had remained open 2 or 3 units could have been retained to work the shuttle service perhaps? I'd suggest that 2 or 3 "oddball" units would be A Bad Thing - that's another stock to train fitters on, and drivers on, and carry parts for, and... presumably, had it remained open, a few extra '92 stock cars would have been ordered. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Apr 18, 2012 23:44:05 GMT
One would assume so nowadays, especially with the ubiquity of computerised and electronic hardware. However, perhaps with older stock, where parts were more mechanical in nature, it would have been less of an issue to fabricate or doctor other parts for rarer items. In the days of the Standards - 49ts one wonders how with the multiude of different bits and bobs parts/spares itineraries were ever kept comprehensive. Also, I guess one could include in the bracket the 1960ts 'fleet' kept before the 1992ts had full domain. Just to elaborate on Reg's earlier post a teeny-weeny bit, the 83ts was subsequently explicitly banned from entering London Road Depot; this might have been in the 1986 update to the 1983 edition of appendix 11 to the rule book. The other main update was the instruction to delete all references to the 'R stock'. Metman -  Where on earth did you read that plan about the 38ts?! Granted all kinds of oddball schemes are thrown around in terms of preliminary 'brainstorming'; however the thought of a 38ts in red doors (could this have happened had the scheme occured late enough possibly?) appeals extremely in a twisted way  =D |
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Post by ruislip on Apr 19, 2012 1:35:56 GMT
Would the 83s have been a good fit for segments like the Chesham Shuttle, the Olympia Shuttle, the Hainault Loop, or the W&C?
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 19, 2012 22:10:41 GMT
One would assume so nowadays, especially with the ubiquity of computerised and electronic hardware. However, perhaps with older stock, where parts were more mechanical in nature, it would have been less of an issue to fabricate or doctor other parts for rarer items. In the days of the Standards - 49ts one wonders how with the multiude of different bits and bobs parts/spares itineraries were ever kept comprehensive. Also, I guess one could include in the bracket the 1960ts 'fleet' kept before the 1992ts had full domain. Just to elaborate on Reg's earlier post a teeny-weeny bit, the 83ts was subsequently explicitly banned from entering London Road Depot; this might have been in the 1986 update to the 1983 edition of appendix 11 to the rule book. The other main update was the instruction to delete all references to the 'R stock'. Metman - Where on earth did you read that plan about the 38ts?! Granted all kinds of oddball schemes are thrown around in terms of preliminary 'brainstorming'; however the thought of a 38ts in red doors (could this have happened had the scheme occured late enough possibly?) appeals extremely in a twisted way =D It's actually in the 1938 stock story by Piers Conner. An excellent book and a must for any fan. It is very well written (as all of Pier's books are) and conveys to the reader that the 1938ts weren't all that! Yes there was a plan to convert 10 trains of 1983 stock and use them on the Jubilee. Probably a good thing it didn't happen. The initial plan was to convert the single doors to doubles. Also 16 1983 batch/mark 1 trailers were kept on in addition to all of the batch/mark 2 units. I'm not sure what the intention for these cars were. It is possible that the spare trailers could have been converted to UNDM but either rebuilding the cab end with the trailer ends or taking the equipment from the motor cars and fitting it to the trailers. I imagine the former was 'easier(!)'. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 19, 2012 22:18:12 GMT
As an edit would suggest the formation for the 1983 stock would have been M-T-M+UNDM-T-M Perhaps the shunt equipment could have been removed from the withdrawn 1972 mark 1 UNDMs which ended service at a similar time?
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Where on earth did you read that plan about the 38ts?! Granted all kinds of oddball schemes are thrown around in terms of preliminary 'brainstorming'; however the thought of a 38ts in red doors (could this have happened had the scheme occured late enough possibly?) appeals extremely in a twisted way 
