Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 8:18:40 GMT
Admins - please move (or even delete!) if you think appropriate:
On BBC teletext this morning on "London News".
ACTION URGED ON TUBE INFORMATION
A union had demanded action from London Underground against bogus Tube service information. RMT said "a catalogue of abuse of service information had led to threats directly against staff".
It said the Underground had misled passengers by saying there was a good service when most of the line was delayed but one part was running well.
London Underground (LU) said it provided "timely and accurate information for passengers and staff".
Oh yes? Rumbled at last?? I think some of might say "we rest our case".
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Feb 23, 2012 9:03:38 GMT
There are two reasons for disinformation. Either: 1) Deliberate deception such as in Orwell's "1984" and the Soviet lands> > "All is well because we say so", or 2) The level of management providing the information is now so completely out of touch with what is actually gong on, having promoted itself away from reality, it really believes there is nothing wrong because "bad news" never travels that far up the greasy pole.
One of the above must be correct. Or perhaps a combination of both??
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 9:24:41 GMT
The accuracy of the service information was referenced in another thread earlier this week. It seems that the guys who know the exact status of the system (controllers, local managers etc) have no say in what information is posted. The actual displays are controlled from higher up, way above the nuts and bolts of the system, and these people, I'm afraid, will say what they want to believe.
The key point of your post, however, is the morality of knowingly telling lies, particularly by people who should know better. Sadly the traditional values that lying is wrong have long fallen by the wayside. Politicians at all levels, including all recent prime ministers, lie through their teeth at the drop of a hat. In the legal system, where lying under oath is supposed to be a serious matter, the contempt laws are rarely used. Kids who lie but are then found out never feel any guilt.
Times have changed and lying is a tool of life. I admire your philosophy and I agree with you but I fear you are doing something into the wind.
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Post by citysig on Feb 23, 2012 11:00:10 GMT
Going to sit a little on the fence here.
My own opinion? I think the whole system needs changing, and it has done for years. But what do you change it to?
Slight improvements have been made recently, whereby extra information is provided on the rainbow boards. So you now can have a line which is both Part Suspended and has Minor Delays on different sections.
The system was intended to give customers a very quick and brief description of the service operating. A "Good Service" has never meant you will turn up and be served with a train immediately, but it does mean you shouldn't wait longer than the published journey interval. "Minor Delays" is meant to convey to the user that they may indeed wait slightly longer than the published frequency time, but should not wait longer than twice the published time (there are exceptions to this). Severe Delays gives the message that the line is suffering from many extended intervals, and if there is an alternative then use it.
So on the face of it, they are quite accurate messages, provided everyone - customers and staff - are aware of the true meanings, and play the game fairly each time. There are so many occasions whereby staff say we should be putting out delays - because everything is running 20 late - yet the customer sees a good service. Or the reverse, where a customer waits 9 minutes for a Circle Line train and demands there are delays, when in fact the train they catch is on time.
Over time, the goalposts have been moved in order to keep targets looking better. When publications such as the Standard put out news that there hasn't been a good service in x,y,z months, then you can understand any manager wanting to keep everything as good service - even if there may be a small delay here and there. As controllers, we are able to "recommend" the service status, but it is down to Service Managers and above to ultimately decide what message is published.
The system needs removing from the targets, and needs to be restored to the true purpose it was introduced for. If we put out delays and specify the area of delay, then that should be it. If it has to be on the targets, then simply say that it is information (however good or bad) being successfully passed on.
And, if this happened, then what other phrases or criteria could we use to demonstrate quickly to a customer passing through the barrier what kind of service is operating? Remember that some of our lines are quite long, and what may be happening at one end, may not affect those at the other at all.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 23, 2012 11:44:00 GMT
The change to giving more detail on the whiteboards has helped, but it hasn't propagated everywhere yet. For example the other day the District was suspended at the southern end of the Wimbledon branch, with severe delays Earl's Court to Edgware Road in consequence. The Richmond/Ealing-Tower/Upminster service wasn't significantly affected. The station announcement at Hounslow East said only that the District was "part suspended" with no further detail given.
Another problem is the lack of consistency. On Friday last week the DLR was suspended between Shadwell and Tower Gateway, it was blatantly obvious as all the trains from Gallions Reach were only going as far as Shadwell, and at Canning Town high level the options were Bank or Shadwell. Yet at various stations on the network (Gallions Reach, Canning Town, Green Park and Victoria, plus some I head through open train doors) were saying "good service" for the entire DLR, "minor delays" for either the affected stretch or the entire DLR, "(part) suspended" over the affected stretch or "part suspended" with no detail given. I'm not an expert but I know that a track fault doesn't get repaired and the service resume from suspended to good service in the time it takes an 09 stock to travel from Green Park to Victoria.
I've said this before in the several previous occasions we've discussed this, but there are two things the travelling public want to know - how long will I have to wait, and how long will my journey take when I'm on the train. The current status messages don't distinguish between "trains are running at full speed but there are long gaps between them" and "there are plenty of trains but they're only going at walking pace". A slow direct train could still be quicker than a convoluted alternative route, particularly if I have bulky luggage. If there is only one train every 20 minutes on the Northern Line from Bank then I'm not going to be able to get on one when it does arrive, so it's worth taking the alternative route. It also depends where the disruption is - if the problems are only on the High Barnet branch, then it's not worth seeking an alternative route between Bank and Balham, but if the problems are at Oval then it could be worth my while going an alternative way.
The most important thing though is that whatever information is given it needs to be reliable. If "minor delays" today means I have to wait 10 minutes rather than 5 and tomorrow it means my journey takes an hour longer then what use is being told there are "minor delays" the day after?
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Feb 23, 2012 13:05:25 GMT
Admins - please move (or even delete!) if you think appropriate: Personally, as a non-LU admin I'm quite happy for it to stay as it is, where it is. But if Colin (as LU) feels we're 'on the verge' here, we'll have a little admin talk and decide.............
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Post by redsetter on Feb 23, 2012 14:30:20 GMT
its the society we live in today,the unacceptable has become acceptable.the tube thread highlights peoples behavior and here it shows not telling the truth.
unfortunately this can result from a culture of keeping figures for certain events to a minimum,this isn't that uncommon today either.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 15:38:19 GMT
When I joined LUL there was a simple “no news is good news” attitude and stations made PAs as and when they needed to tell the punters when the job went up the wall. About a year before I made the move from stations to trains some bright spark up at 55 had the wonderful idea to spew out the automated “good service” messages every few minutes on the hope that Londoners would develop the “perception” that the Tube was doing ok.
This is what happens when management, and I mean the ones that do 9-5 M-F at rather than the operational ones, becomes so dislocated from the actual day to day running of a railway that they are more concerned with marketing strategies, public relations and consumer surveys than what is actually going on down at on the “shop floor”.
There is the old joke that we could run a decent railway if it wasn’t for the passengers; the reality is that we could run decent railway for the passengers if it wasn’t for the suits up at 55.
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pitdiver
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Post by pitdiver on Feb 23, 2012 15:44:07 GMT
aslefshrugged I totally agree with everything you say. I for one get totally p***ed off when I travel on LUL when I keep hearing "good service". I say leave to the station staff as it was when I worked for LUL.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 16:15:25 GMT
What you fail to understand is that these things are far too important to leave to the people who actually do the day-to-day job which is why it needs a committee of people who spend their lives sat in offices to sit down in a conference room and decide what the Tube really needs.
Without wishing to get political when Ken put Tim O'Toole in charge he kicked butt. When Boris took over, Tim left and Mike Brown slithered back, we were back to the same old same old.
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Post by orienteer on Feb 23, 2012 16:36:39 GMT
The danger with the misinformation is that people will no longer believe what they are being told. In the event of a real emergency, they are going to make their own decisions on what to do rather than blindly follow any instructions.
I have taken every announcement with a large pinch of salt since being stuck at Sudbury Town for half an hour due to a person ill on the train, while listening to frequent announcements that there was a good service operating from Sudbury Town.
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Post by 21146 on Feb 23, 2012 17:00:49 GMT
What you fail to understand is that these things are far too important to leave to the people who actually do the day-to-day job which is why it needs a committee of people who spend their lives sat in offices to sit down in a conference room and decide what the Tube really needs. Without wishing to get political when Ken put Tim O'Toole in charge he kicked butt. When Boris took over, Tim left and Mike Brown slithered back, we were back to the same old same old. How true that last paragraph is. I've "met" so many staff members on here of a similar age and, often, seniority (sorry, wash my mouth out, used a nasty word there) whose views, demoralisation and career ambition (i.e. V/S or retirement ASAP) exactly echo mine. ToT was someone many of us would given 110% and "gone to the wall for". As for the recent senior management changes (otherwise known as "Making plans for Nigel"), God help us, with even the COO now being sidelined. Not long ago the Jubilee Line was at a stand for around 30 minutes, yet no delay message was allowed to go out for fear of it appearing on the PC of a certain Tory municipal leader in London. Should this be raised a director-level within in LU? Not much point, it was one of them that decreed this course of action.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 17:24:55 GMT
Me again.
How many times have people written here that the silly Good Service messages are just a stupidity, I am surprised that the news has taken so long to find this out, and I see that on the BBC it says -" Howard Collins, chief operating officer for LU said: "It is completely wrong to suggest we provide misleading or inaccurate information", it does really looks bad when the chief person even does not understand.
I did write on here one time that at Canning Town on my Jubilee Line the message on the already very full platform at the rush hour was going round and round between Jubilee Line Good Service and Next Train 12 minutes.
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Post by citysig on Feb 23, 2012 23:58:30 GMT
I'm sorry to dampen anyone's fire, but the current information regime was born during Tim O'Toole's time, and has merely grown around his ideas.
The "No news is good news" policy is great if you want a quiet life without the endless announcements, but that policy too was withdrawn following King's Cross - where no news was definately not good news.
Don't get me wrong here. I agree we're broadcasting far too much to a population all wearing earphones or not understanding our language or simply switched off. There are so many announcements nobody listens to any of them, and when there is information that might be important it is missed.
21146, there are still many, many people of many years on the job who have seen certain things more than once. I don't want VS or anything like it. This phase will move on, and the fact it has become slightly higher in the news means maybe sooner rather than later. I attended meetings a few years ago, and maybe those papers will be dusted off very soon. Changes and trends come and go. One thing is for certain, there will always be certain members of staff who will always be wanting out no matter how we move.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2012 5:40:32 GMT
Must agree with Diana and am surprised this story hasn't surfaced before. I wonder if a bright reporter or union press office should have done a foi to ascertain how many complaints regarding incorrect (sic) service messages have been received. Or maybe not.
I notice at TOT new home at First they use the good service with minor alterations message.
Meanwhile Met customers are proudly told a good service is operating but your Watford is cancelled (30 min gap) and your Amersham actually started from wembley and not Aldgate.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2012 9:15:07 GMT
Met Controller, Tim took over in February 2003, I left stations that summer and I’m pretty sure the “good service” announcements had been about a year or more. Maybe it just felt like longer, all those PAs crammed together after the relative peace and quiet distorted the passing of time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2012 12:52:03 GMT
Certainly the "Good Service" concept came a little before Tim arrived, as I was involved to a certain extent (and obviously failed!!) - it was all the other announcements that followed after Tim arrived. Having said that, and the pro's and con's of them, he was the best boss at the top that LU ever had in my opinion and echo 21146's sentiments.
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Post by 21146 on Feb 24, 2012 16:26:23 GMT
One thing is for certain, there will always be certain members of staff who will always be wanting out no matter how we move. Yep but I think there has been a difference since the late 1980s. Until then the only people who wanted to leave were those who were never really suited to the job in the first place. When I joined the railway in 1977 it was very much a family in so many ways with a great cameraderie born from many years of service to the travelling public and for many it was also so much more than just a job. The sense of belonging that so many had enjoyed had begun to wane a little several years before I joined LT, when the combine began to be broken up by splitting off London Country in 1970 and then again when London Buses went in the 1980s but there was still a strong sense of family amongst Underground staff. It all began to change for the worse when LT suddenly became LRT, at first I don't think anyone thought much about that additional R but by the end of the 1980s there had been a real seed change in upper echelon management activity. We'd seen forced redundancy, works & bricks (the Building Department) replaced with outside building contractors, power division sold to SPL, estates and advertising sold off, IT (data networks) sold off and on the operating side a couple of attempts at reorganising the departments generally known as 'Action Stations' had been seen off temporarily. The writing was on the wall so to speak and all that delayed it really was the King's Cross fire which kept most of engineering in house for another 10 years before the inevitable politically motivated privatisation which cost the taxpayer more money than continuing the subsidies would have but which was able to be conveniently 'majicked' off the government balance sheet. The upshot of devolvement to lines and the great sell off of engineering was that many experienced staff saw a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and it wasn't just engineering veterans that walked but many operating staff saw the light too opting for an earlier retirement as the bottom had been knocked out of the job. The great infux of inexperienced graduates and external candidates directly into station managament roles was also a catalyst expediting exodus from what had once been a good career with good prsopects. Many of those that remained have probably stayed on only long enough to secure better pension entitlement and/or pay off the mortgage. the railway just isn't the great organisation that it once was and it is perhaps less efficient now than it has ever been, it is perhaps just a job nowadays no better nor worse than many others but without the great sense of belonging that was almost universally felt across the now long gone combine! Hear, hear. Also gone - the Food Producton Centre, the Catering Department itself, the book publishing activity, the licensed social clubs, the RTC, internal power generation etc etc. Plus the bus-orientated facilities - Aldenham and Chiswick, Effra Road. Soon we can add 55 Broadway to that list if someone gets their way. When everyone was "LT" there was a shared camerarderie and a feeling we were all on the same side. Once contractors, PFIs, PPPs got involved it was/is all about blame-culture, each area more concerned with protecting its own back than working for a common cause. Maybe one day they'll be a book written called "The Destruction of London Transport"?
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Post by citysig on Feb 24, 2012 19:24:17 GMT
Met Controller, Tim took over in February 2003, I left stations that summer and I’m pretty sure the “good service” announcements had been about a year or more. I'm sorry to dampen anyone's fire, but the current information regime was born during Tim O'Toole's time, and has merely grown around his ideas. Kind of what I had said, but of course it had been around before. It merely began to grow (and be measured) during Tim's time. My comment was aimed at those (including yourself) that gave the impression none of this was down to Tim. What I meant by my comment was that Tim inherited it, and allowed it to become what it is today. So he is as much to blame as anyone, despite the "kick-ass" attitude he occasionally showed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2012 15:43:13 GMT
It's reassuring, though not surprising, that the people that do the real work - those on the front line - agree that the info service is a mess.
I think it stems from the days when the biggest complaint was lack of information when things went wrong. Now we seem to get misinformation, or announcements which are supposed to convince us that everything is fine i.e plenty of announcements but very little information.
It's typical of a management structure which is too proud to listen and too arrogant to learn. Another example was the 'touch in and touch out' announcements. "this is to ensure you pay the correct fare". Why not "to ensure you're not over charged for your journey...."?
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Post by v52gc on Feb 26, 2012 10:45:52 GMT
Taken from the Governments consumer rights website: "When you buy an item from a trader the law says the item must be: -of satisfactory quality – last for the time you would expect it to and be free of any defects -fit for purpose – fit for the use described and any specific use you made clear to the trader -as described – match the description on packaging or what the trader told you When you buy a service it must be provided: -with reasonable care and skill – the service should be carried out to a good standard with no faults or flaws -at a reasonable cost – the price charged should match the skills of the service provider. -within a reasonable time." I've often wondered why no hot shot lawyer hasn't gone for the tube based on these rights. How can something be described as a good service when it obviously isn't to the average person. It might be "good service" as defined by LU but not as defined by the average person. Should this be allowed? The "as described" section of the law is for goods not services though so I might be heading straight for a brick wall. I've always been a strong supporter of the local information, people want to know where their next train is, how long it will take to arrive and how long it will take to arrive to their destination. There is a time and place for information regarding problems further afield on the network, and that is only for major disruptions and not as often as the local information should be. In the past I've always been a bit upset being waiting for 8 mins at a station and hearing 2/3 times a service update but not when the next train is. Even if the service is running fine, I would like to know how long I will be standing around for rather then minor delays on the other side of London. And this is possible...
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Post by citysig on Feb 27, 2012 0:22:39 GMT
Walk round any Tesco (a favourite "rant" store for me) and you'll see claims of this, that and the other.
However people (me included) feel about the sometimes ambiguous quality of information we put out, we will admit we're suspended if we are, and if there really are large gaps, they will (should) be advised locally if nothing else.
You cannot really quote consumer law. A train generally turns up, and is indeed a train and not a truck that you have to manually power, and it is very rare we ask you to walk through the tunnels. And if you read the small print of our terms and conditions of carriage, at no point do we guarantee a train will arrive or you'll get your money back. As a purely generous offering, we do give refunds if people are delayed or no train turns up.
Tesco this week are offering me fish fingers that were £1.30 last week but are now £1.29 on one of their extraordinary "price drops" and also go to great lengths to tell me that my toilet roll is the same price as Sainsburys. They don't point out that it will cost me more to have steak and chips with a bottle of wine than last week, or that my dogs will be eating more expensively. They also would not suffer the sheer amount of shoplifting we suffer either...
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Post by peterc on Feb 27, 2012 0:27:39 GMT
When I look up the online departure boards for Chalfont and Latimer on my phone the train on the Chesham branch is always 7 minutes away (I suspect even when travelling towards Chesham) and you still need to refer to the timetable to see if the Chiltern due in 2 minutes is actually booked to stop.
I appreciate the philosophy behind the definition of "good service" and it makes pretty good sense in zones 1 and 2 but falls apart when faced with the complexities and low frequencies at the extremities of the Met.
The comments about "shared camerarderie" strike a chord. In recent years my own employer has outsourced everything that can be outsourced (and some things that shouldn't) to a variety of "service partners". A couple of years ago I wouldn't have thought that I would be pleased to be made redundant. Now I am delighted to take the money and run, despite the recession.
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Post by citysig on Feb 27, 2012 0:45:01 GMT
Your mobile phone is receiving information relayed from our "Trackernet" system. This system has only been able to "watch" the whole network for a couple of years, and still has many areas where improvements are needed. But on the whole, given the sheer number of tasks it is asked to perform, and given the information it is fed, it does a pretty decent job.
The system monitors existing track / signalling circuits. When a train leaves Chesham it can detect this, but after that the train is merely "between Chesham and Chalfont." On the signallers diagram in Amersham Signal Cabin there is just one track circuit which will illuminate to inform the signaller that a train is on the branch. It cannot - and doesn't need to - tell the signaller how far down the branch the train is. So Trackernet, and the information sent to your phone, has to make a "best guess" as to the train's location.
Chiltern services are monitored in much the same way, with a few added bits and pieces based upon the information they have given us. Generally, unless travelling southbound in the morning peak or northbound in the evening peak, all Chilterns stop at our stations (except Moor Park).
When there is a delay / cancellation north of Harrow, there may not always be a company-wide delays message, but the information is always communicated from our control room to outlying stations. It is hoped this more local information is made available.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Feb 27, 2012 5:52:53 GMT
Chorleywood still a dark area?
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Post by peterc on Feb 27, 2012 9:45:17 GMT
@metcontrol as an IT consultant with over 30 years experience I worked out what the limitations of the system must be within seconds. The average passenger would just think it was incorrectly set up.
Which means that passengers end up being given confilicting information that there is both a delay and a "good service". Again I understand why this occurs but it gives the press plenty of scope for a cheap dig at LUL.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2012 18:01:26 GMT
Your mobile phone is receiving information relayed from our "Trackernet" system. This system has only been able to "watch" the whole network for a couple of years, and still has many areas where improvements are needed. But on the whole, given the sheer number of tasks it is asked to perform, and given the information it is fed, it does a pretty decent job. In the interests of balance, I agree with this totally. It works very well on the Uxbridge branch. Service information is a poisoned chalice, with every passenger reacting differently, so it's a very hard balance to strike, especially if things are complicated by internal or external politics. If I were in charge, I'd stop announcements of a good service when any delays were being experienced in favour of a more exact announcement from station staff, but I suppose some passengers would complain that announcements were then too complicated!
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