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Post by jamesb on Nov 9, 2011 23:47:22 GMT
I traveled on a 2009ts today and noticed that half the emergency alarms in each carriage had been removed and a sign 'passenger alarm located at opposite doorway' stuck on below.
I have previously seen an alarm at every doorway.
Was there a reason for the reduction?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2011 7:52:25 GMT
Cost cutting on these units already?!
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Rich32
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Post by Rich32 on Nov 10, 2011 8:27:45 GMT
More than likely it's to reduce the amount of false alarms that keep screwing the service.
The 09's are rather over-provided for in comparison to the 67's.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2011 11:09:09 GMT
More than likely it's to reduce the amount of false alarms that keep screwing the service. The 09's are rather over-provided for in comparison to the 67's. Exactly the reason why they have been covered. The units are still underneath the covers (see the holes over the speakers/microphone). |
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Post by jamesb on Nov 10, 2011 21:42:32 GMT
It makes sense that halving the number of alarms decreases the chances of a false alarm but it doesn't really solve any underlying issue?
Is the 'push button' more prone to false alarms?
It seems like its easy for things to poke into it.
Already more stickers 'passenger emergency alarm located opposite' are starting to vandalise the otherwise nice and brand new train!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2011 22:03:49 GMT
The lever seems more solid tbh
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Nov 11, 2011 6:45:17 GMT
Fully equipped with CCTV, any false alarm should be liable to the usual prosecutions...
In theory at least!
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Rich32
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Post by Rich32 on Nov 11, 2011 8:50:50 GMT
The lever seems more solid tbh I agree, but I believe they have to be of the push button type to conform with RVAR/DDA regulations. A lot of the false alarms activated have been genuine accidents, rather than malicious, but it still requires train and station staff to investigate and check each time. |
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Post by jamesb on Nov 11, 2011 9:15:46 GMT
could they not have plastic covers or something like that?
what happens when it gets pressed?
is there a 30 second timer after the doors have closed similar to the central line which applies the brakes automatically?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2011 10:07:04 GMT
is there a 30 second timer after the doors have closed similar to the central line which applies the brakes automatically? A PEA will apply the brakes at any time until the train detects that it has passed the 8 car marker (i.e. is a train length out of the station). |
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Nov 11, 2011 11:58:43 GMT
The alarms aren't able to decide if the train is going too fast to stop on the platform... If the alarm is pressed when only the last car is still in the station, e.g. still receiving the CSDE loop, then it will brake and when it's stopped, the last car will have reached the sixth marker...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2011 14:01:59 GMT
The alarms aren't able to decide if the train is going too fast to stop on the platform... If the alarm is pressed when only the last car is still in the station, e.g. still receiving the CSDE loop, then it will brake and when it's stopped, the last car will have reached the sixth marker... There are no CSDE loops and the CSDE is only provided at the platform stop point +/- 2.5m. The standards mandate that the brake is applied if any part of the train is still in the platform. Sure they could be made to be smarter, but they do as required. |
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Nov 11, 2011 17:00:30 GMT
The alarms aren't able to decide if the train is going too fast to stop on the platform... If the alarm is pressed when only the last car is still in the station, e.g. still receiving the CSDE loop, then it will brake and when it's stopped, the last car will have reached the sixth marker... There are no CSDE loops and the CSDE is only provided at the platform stop point +/- 2.5m. The standards mandate that the brake is applied if any part of the train is still in the platform. Sure they could be made to be smarter, but they do as required. How does the train detect whether it's in the platform? |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 11, 2011 17:22:15 GMT
How does the train detect whether it's in the platform? I would hope the automatic system ATO knows where the trains are! Position detectors. |
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Nov 11, 2011 18:48:01 GMT
ok.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2011 19:01:04 GMT
They read transponders on the track for an absolute position reference, and track their location inbetween transponder reads. They know exactly where they are at any given time.
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Post by seaeagle on Nov 11, 2011 19:03:50 GMT
They know exactly where they are at any given time. Some of the time!  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2011 19:40:31 GMT
They know exactly where they are at any given time. Some of the time! Not that often they actually get lost! |
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Nov 12, 2011 13:16:45 GMT
Some of the time! Not that often they actually get lost! If you follow that online tracker, sometimes they end up in France ;D ;D |
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Nov 12, 2011 15:02:04 GMT
Not that often they actually get lost! If you follow that online tracker, sometimes they end up in France ;D ;D The online tracker does magic with the departure boards... |
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Post by jamesb on Nov 13, 2011 23:11:58 GMT
I was just thinking that a lot of thought obviously went into the design of the 2009ts from a practical point of view, e.g. the train number displayed on the side of the train, the door open butterflies at a reachable level etc.
So somebody must have taken the decision to put a PEA at every doorway for a good reason, I'm sure they weren't just sprinkled around the train without reason.
On the other hand, to have so many false alarms is worse because nobody will take them seriously and the service will always be delayed.
But just removing half of them isn't solving the underlying issue.
I am disappointed that a more original solution could not be found, like a plastic cover etc.
ALSO - are the new emergency stop plungers on some of the platforms going to be commissioned at some point?
The reasoning on the Jubilee line was that they weren't needed and were to expensive to maintain. So why are the getting installed (well, upgraded) on the victoria line? Is it because of the absence of platform edge doors?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2011 23:34:35 GMT
Not taking a PEA seriously just down to the number of times a false one occurs is not the way to go about things!
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Post by tubeprune on Nov 14, 2011 7:58:19 GMT
The lever seems more solid tbh I agree, but I believe they have to be of the push button type to conform with RVAR/DDA regulations. A lot of the false alarms activated have been genuine accidents, rather than malicious, but it still requires train and station staff to investigate and check each time. This sort of problem is typical when bureaucrats make regulations for a system that they don't understand. I bet no one asked the operators what they thought of a push button alarm. I noticed how easy it is to catch one accidentally. You only have to lean on the pillar in a certain way and it is easy to push it without realising. I'll bet back packs cause a problem too. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2011 11:30:23 GMT
ALSO - are the new emergency stop plungers on some of the platforms going to be commissioned at some point? The reasoning on the Jubilee line was that they weren't needed and were to expensive to maintain. So why are the getting installed (well, upgraded) on the victoria line? Is it because of the absence of platform edge doors? They are being commissioned as the Asset Replacement is being done, so are commissioned down to finsbury park at the moment. As regards the pushbuttons rather than handles, I agree with tubeprune that the DDA/RVAR regulations are a little short sighted. What are the chances, especially on a Vic Line train, that someone would need to use a PEA, not be able to pull a handle, and there be nobody on the car to help them if they cannot operate the handle? Also, there are designated disabled area buttons which suffer many unintended operations - what are the chances a wheelchair bound person would be travelling alone? |
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Post by jamesb on May 27, 2012 17:46:04 GMT
I was just thinking that a lot of thought obviously went into the design of the 2009ts from a practical point of view, e.g. the train number displayed on the side of the train, the door open butterflies at a reachable level etc. So somebody must have taken the decision to put a PEA at every doorway for a good reason, I'm sure they weren't just sprinkled around the train without reason. On the other hand, to have so many false alarms is worse because nobody will take them seriously and the service will always be delayed. But just removing half of them isn't solving the underlying issue. I am disappointed that a more original solution could not be found, like a plastic cover etc. ALSO - are the new emergency stop plungers on some of the platforms going to be commissioned at some point? The reasoning on the Jubilee line was that they weren't needed and were to expensive to maintain. So why are the getting installed (well, upgraded) on the victoria line? Is it because of the absence of platform edge doors? I see that an INGENIOUS sliding cover has now been installed over the alarms... Impressive work whoever designed that! |
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Post by seaeagle on May 27, 2012 17:53:47 GMT
I see that an INGENIOUS sliding cover has now been installed over the alarms... Impressive work whoever designed that! Being installed on all trains from this weekend. I some how doubt that they would have been installed if we didn't have a couple of major events happening in London over the next few months! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2012 18:23:10 GMT
I see that an INGENIOUS sliding cover has now been installed over the alarms... Impressive work whoever designed that! Being installed on all trains from this weekend. I some how doubt that they would have been installed if we didn't have a couple of major events happening in London over the next few months! Cant remember which it was, either train 46 or 47 had them on last wednesday |
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Post by jamesb on May 27, 2012 18:59:52 GMT
They will virtually eliminate people triggering the alarm by leaning on the unit by the looks of them. It looks like it slides but is also curved...
I wonder if they will uncover the covered up units and fit the cover to them as well?
The new Met trains have similar units but with bigger buttons... They look even easier to lean on but I haven't heard any problems with them...
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Antje
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Post by Antje on May 29, 2012 17:15:41 GMT
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Post by jamesb on May 29, 2012 19:25:49 GMT
now they just need a cover like this over the doors and the trains will be sorted!!! |
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