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Post by maxym on Oct 2, 2011 20:03:56 GMT
I did a search on this which turned up nothing - which I can't believe... But here goes.
I generally aim to travel in the first part of the front car and just love it when the Westinghouse brake is used. I can't put my finger on why but it's undoubtedly to do with the sound which somehow makes the journey more involving for the interested traveller.
Am I right in thinking that, compared to the EP, the Westinghouse is slower-acting and less responsive? Which is why it's rarely used...?
Is it still a requirement that the Westinghouse (assuming it's fitted) should be used once on every trip? I notice that relatively often it;s used at Euston Square on the Circle (though it's pretty silent on C stock)?
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Post by james66526 on Oct 2, 2011 23:52:05 GMT
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,257
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Post by roythebus on Oct 3, 2011 8:28:55 GMT
Mr Westinghouse invented a very good brake, in my view far superior to the vacuum brake favoured by many UK railways.
Having worked the Westinghouse on the Underground and on SR stock, the LT version is different to the straight Westinghouse because it relies on the EP brake system too, by going through the mercury arc retarders. I can't remember if C stock has them, but this was certainly so on other stock.
So, on older stock, providing the EP was cut in, you'd get full brake cylinder pressure, with it cut out, it was 28psi as the retarders weren't active, hence the reluctance of drivers to use the Westinghouse.
On SR stock (4-SUB, Waterloo & City) there was no EP brake, so you always had full brake pressure available. the problem is that you only have 3 applications before you run out of auxiliary air! The brake took some skill to use, and that skill now seems to have been lost.
On the W&C I could stop a train within 1" of a mark every time. It was possible to stop at Bank and leave a mark of the front buffer on the stop block without the train actually hitting the stop block. the buffer would spring forward, leave a greasy mark and bounce back again!! the bobby there never did find out who kept doing it.
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Post by auxsetreq on Oct 3, 2011 9:33:50 GMT
In the past tense as these are my recollections on the 62s........
My experiences of the Westinghouse brake were to put it mildly "Bicycle Clip Time" - Handle to lap position no3, then into no4 to let out some equalising air to atmosphere, wait for an application of brakes. In theory, this should of happened, but in many cases, especially on the 62s, nothing happened at all and one was left with only one option as the platform end approached rapidly - *Cosh It!* - Or emergency position no5 for an emergency stop, which was by then too late as the end of the platform whizzed past...............
The 62s didn't have an equalising piston, but a popper valve which would stick. So one could pi$$ out all the equalising air and if the popper valve had stuck down the train would be coasting along with nothing happening, until it was too late................
The Westinghouse /EP combo was a risky set-up. Full braking pressure all hangs on the thread of a 10amp EP fuse, which if blown would seriously reduce full emergency brakes on the train as the blow-down valves de-energised open making those farting noises. Along with the farting noises I was making as my Simon Bowels opened as the train over shot the platform..........
The Westinghouse was supposed to be tested out on every trip at the penultimate station - West Acton going to Ealing BW for example.............A platform that saw many Simon Bowel moments...........
Hated the bloody thing, good riddance to it. And the sad thing? I can still remember all the airflows. Which goes to show how good learning by rote is. On a 62 the Westinghouse as a service brake was about as useful as me having a Gok Wan make-over..........Give me the intelligent braking of the 92 any day.......
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,257
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Post by roythebus on Oct 3, 2011 19:04:23 GMT
As auxsetreq says above, the LT Westinghouse does indeed rely on the 10 amp fuse to make it work. On the SR stock, it didn't, as it was a REAL Westinghouse. Even on the EP/CIG etc stock it was a real Westinghouse, but because of the brake handle setup, was not easy to use like the SUBs.
In my view NO modern braking is intelligent. Any intelligence went when contol of the brakes was taken away from the driver and given to a computer.
I only ever recall Westinghouse failure once in my career, and that was running into Vauxhall on the down slow one afternoon. I tried to apply the brake, it went hisssss, hisssss, hissss as Vauxhall went by. the guard dropped the handle and we stopped.
I carried on to Clapham Junction, stopping using the deadman and caused chaos by having to set back into the carriage sidings, blocking the SW main line. the unit was never repaired and went for scrap.
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Post by t697 on Oct 3, 2011 20:32:25 GMT
On C stock and 72TS the Blowdown valves are energise to blowdown so if the EP mcb trips, thw W/House can still give full pressure. But you need to be very careful then because without the EP circuits to give the mercury retarder control and blowdown, the wheels lock easily on a lightly loaded train.
Also ISTR that the Westinghouse service application (not emergency) on C stock is disconcertingly slow.
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Post by maxym on Oct 5, 2011 18:24:13 GMT
Thanks guys; fascinating stuff. Especially as one of you loves the Westinghouse and another hates it. I'll need to read up to understand some of the tech bits though...
I was able to watch the driver of the 1938TS on its afternoon southbound runs during the Amersham Heritage day event the other week. He used the Westinghouse on a few occasions to control speed, but relied on the EP for station and signal stops. Very nice to see - and hear - a bit of variety.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282 
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Post by Ben on Oct 5, 2011 19:41:15 GMT
The 'popper' valve, is this the one on the brake controller? The one on the brake controller was apparently adopted in preference to a rotary-type face valve because it reduced maintenance. How ironic if it reduced functionality aswell...
I vaguely remember a while back at Ryde St Johns Depot there being boxes of brake handles and controller tops lying about, shortly after one of the many floods they had. Think the guy on duty said they were seeing if some of the 'old central lines' stuff could be fitted :S
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Post by auxsetreq on Oct 8, 2011 16:22:07 GMT
The 'popper' valve, is this the one on the brake controller? A far as I can recall - yes. The equalising piston was at the back of the rotary valve, part of the Westinghouse EP brake handle set-up. I was taught the Westinghouse of the 38 stock and as I remember it went like this.............. The driver puts the brake handle into the lap no3 position and then to make an application of brake he then puts it into the no4 position to release some equalising air from the equalising reservoir to atmosphere. As equalising air is released train line air becomes greater than equalising air and pushes the equalising piston up to gradually release train line air to atmosphere. Auxiliary air in the auxiliary reservoir then becomes greater than train line air and pushes the primary piston and slide valve in the triple valve to the application position allowing auxiliary air into the brake cylinders...........Well I think it went like that. All seamless and flowing so to speak <<< If all that's wrong forgive me. I've just had a carafe of house white in the Toby Carvery in Romford ( value! ) so I'm a bit more muddled that I usually am. On the 62's the equalising piston was replaced with a popper valve which would stick down every now and then. So on releasing equalising air, nothing would happen as no train line air was being released. Sometimes there would be a "boinnnngggg" noise as the stuck down popper valve would spring up rapidly releasing a load of equalising air which would put an emergency brake on..............Yeah, me n Ceiling Cat hated the thing............ |
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SE13
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2013
Glorious Gooner
Posts: 9,737
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Post by SE13 on Oct 8, 2011 17:49:39 GMT
Hmmm....  Are we then talking *almost* the same effect as a BROMS brake on a bus? (Give or take the control over it) The basics of that is that if the air pressure isn't great enough the BROMS automatically over-rides to stop the bus, rather than manually controlling it to slow the train. (Possibly one for someone who can drive both) EDIT
I'm going to archive this thread when the time comes, I've had a massive search, and although I know there's some threads with Westinghouse mentioned, I'll be damned if I can find one! |
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Post by tubeprune on Nov 1, 2011 21:08:55 GMT
I can't let this one go without a bump. Surely it was a cam operated "poppet" valve. It was more than one. Four I think. They were horizontal not vertical. They were introduced on the 1956 Tube Stock (or was it the R59 Stock?). The system is still in use on the A Stock. Anyone got a copy of the grey Westinghouse manual about the D6 e.p. brake Controller? It's all in there.
I used to use the Westinghouse on complete trips round the Circle with CO/CP Stock and C Stock, even at signals. Once you got the muck out of the system with a few applications, the CO/CP Stock was much better than the C Stock. You got used to it and eventually could get quite good at it.
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mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 2, 2011 0:56:18 GMT
Anyone got a copy of the grey Westinghouse manual about the D6 e.p. brake Controller? It's all in there. Oh noes. I saw one about a month ago and thought to myself - I think I've got a copy of that - so didn't buy it. I shall have a look through my Westinghouse CTC and signalling pile just in case - I know I've got the red copy somewhere. |
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Post by tubeprune on Nov 2, 2011 7:15:46 GMT
Anyone got a copy of the grey Westinghouse manual about the D6 e.p. brake Controller? It's all in there. Oh noes. I saw one about a month ago and thought to myself - I think I've got a copy of that - so didn't buy it. I shall have a look through my Westinghouse CTC and signalling pile just in case - I know I've got the red copy somewhere. M, if you come across either, I'd be pleased to purchase same. I had my originals "removed by persons unknown". I also used to have a Westinghouse brake catalogue of 1920s vintage and it showed all the different types of tripe valves, including a type I came across under a fitter's bench in Ealing Common Depot one day. It was called a "quick service triple valve" instead of the usual "quick acting" one used on the Underground. I noticed it because it was a different shape. Talking to the fitter, I discovered it came from the diesel loco DEL 120. He was surprised I knew what it was and we got into a conversation about it. He said it was always on the loco and I told him it probably came from the 1914 cars it was converted from. Bearing in mind the loco was scrapped in 1958 and we were talking in 1980, the old railway mentality of keeping stuff "just in case" was alive and well then. |
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mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 2, 2011 11:02:29 GMT
I know I've got some stuff on the QSLP type triple valve, having maintained several on the Tally-Ho RR, we got them from Melbourne suburban units, however - they're 300 miles away.
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Post by auxsetreq on Nov 2, 2011 13:22:04 GMT
I can't let this one go without a bump. Surely it was a cam operated "poppet" valve. It was more than one. Four I think. They were horizontal not vertical. They were introduced on the 1956 Tube Stock (or was it the R59 Stock?). The system is still in use on the A Stock. Anyone got a copy of the grey Westinghouse manual about the D6 e.p. brake Controller? It's all in there. Well that solves the mystery of the poppet in the popper valve. They were clogged up with chocolate raisins. When they cleared there was a "boingggg" noise - Really, it sounded just like Zebedee's spring boinging after which the emergency anchors would slam on. As to whether it was horizontal, vertical or even diagonal I'll never know as I never got round to dismantling the thing as I went along.............. Somwhere up in my attic I have the Westinghouse diagram handout that we got at the school. I'll try and locate it and scan it in if I can find it.............. It showed the H port and bowl which I was told wasn't used on any of the stocks running about at the time. Still had to learn though - In emergency the primary piston and slide valve slams against the buffer spring opening the H port allowing an extra two to three pounds psi to enter the brake cylinders....I think it went like that. The power of rote learning, after thirty years even I can still remember the air flows, but I can't remember where I put me specs five minutes ago............... |
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
Posts: 1,316
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Post by castlebar on Nov 2, 2011 14:03:46 GMT
Aha Auxsetreq : > The chocolate raisins in the poppet valves will no doubt be:
"Paynes Poppets or Poppets is confectionery manufactured by Fox's Confectionery, first introduced in 1937. It comes in five different flavours (Mint, Choc Chip Cookie, Toffee, Raisin, and Orange). The Orange and Mint varieties are made of a fondant centre with a dark chocolate covering, the Choc Chip Cookie, Toffee and Raisin varieties have their filling coated with milk chocolate".
These were regularly dispensed in card packets for 6d before decimalisation at most railway stations (with the obvious exception of Castlebar Park). l wondered where they'd all gone so thank you for supplying the answer.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hey, My clock has just reverted back to BST. Why??
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Post by auxsetreq on Nov 2, 2011 15:06:23 GMT
Yes, Paynes Poppets, a tanner a box from the platform vending machines.
I have a confession, or should that be a confection to make. After all these years it's still playing on my mind. Guilt like you'd never believe...........
As a schoolboy I used to catch the tube from Hainault. Me and my partners in crime would purchase a box of Paynes Poppets from a platform machine, empty the contents straight into our gobs and then put the empty box back in the machine's drawer. Then we'd hang about and watch our *victim* who was the next to use the machine get an empty box for a tanner............
........I know, I know. A crime that deserves punishment. Which is why I've had karma repay me for this in kind a thousand times over. I'm so sorry Universal Consciousness, forgive me!
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