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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2006 4:48:55 GMT
Or in the case of newer stock: Static Converters.
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Post by c5 on Oct 5, 2006 5:55:37 GMT
Or in the case of newer stock: Static Converters. Ta. I typed MAs and thought bet they either dont have them or they have been replaced by a modern gizmo Need Stock Training!
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Post by tubeprune on Oct 5, 2006 7:14:04 GMT
As promised, here is the 'S' Stock numbering scheme. prjb, thank you very much for this info. This is not the scheme I have seen before. The original idea was to permit swapping of units so numbers were continuous instead of being dedicated to formations. I also assume from this that only A end MS cars will couple to D end MS cars - A's cannot couple to A's. What sort of couplers will they have? Thinking about it, I suppose it must be a mechanical Wedgelock at cab ends to allow pushouts with old stock. What about the middle? And, there will be more de-icing trains than the rest? Obviously LU doesn't belive in global warming The original plan was to have 25% de-icing trains. Why the variation?
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 5, 2006 17:28:52 GMT
Its a difficult order. By the looks of it, a four car set wil have four technically differant types of car, and a three car set three . So thats 4 differant series you need. Also its desirable to have another series for de-icing cars too. Presumably the units will be reversable? I quite like the fact that there will be no unit short enough to run the Chesham shutle... Is this indicative of any secretive plans?
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Oct 5, 2006 18:35:10 GMT
prjb, thank you very much for this info. This is not the scheme I have seen before. The original idea was to permit swapping of units so numbers were continuous instead of being dedicated to formations. I must confess to only having left operations in early 2005, so I am not familiar with previous schemes. If I dig through the old files they will probably be there! I also assume from this that only A end MS cars will couple to D end MS cars - A's cannot couple to A's. I am not afraid to say I am not sure about this! The plan is to have block 8 and 7 car trains and they will remain in their formations until they are scrapped. I haven't enquired about this as we don't plan to swap them around, so I will ask the question. What sort of couplers will they have? Thinking about it, I suppose it must be a mechanical Wedgelock at cab ends to allow pushouts with old stock. What about the middle? The couplers will be mechanical only and probably not a traditional LU Wedgelock type either. The middle will be semi-permanently coupled. 'S' Couplers will not even line up with conventional Sub-Surface stock due to the low floor nature of 'S'. For the relatively short period of migration we will need to deal with pushouts operationally. This has not been fully decided yet but it may be some form of emergency coupler is strategically placed around the SSR or that we 'wrong road' trains in order to get a compatible stock behind to assist (yes, I know!). And, there will be more de-icing trains than the rest? Obviously LU doesn't belive in global warming The original plan was to have 25% de-icing trains. Why the variation? This is down to figures generated by MRSSL mainly from talking to their fleet staff on the Met. As you know, it is their responsibility to ensure they have a suitable adhesion strategy in place.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Oct 5, 2006 18:42:11 GMT
Presumably the units will be reversable? The trains will be, but as I said to tubeprune I am not sure if an 'even set' can be coupled to an 'even set' or an 'odd' to an 'odd'. I will ask but I suspect you probably can (I'll be wrong now I have posted that! ;D ) I quite like the fact that there will be no unit short enough to run the Chesham shutle... Is this indicative of any secretive plans? Ahem, yes. It is a conundrum to say the least. There are lots of suggestions but no solution as yet. Fortunately I just deal with the rolling stock!
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Oct 5, 2006 18:45:29 GMT
Do you think To me it is the complete opposite. Numbers don't seem to run logically to me. Just like the hotch-potch of the 90's set of tubes stocks. Seems like tey are trying to get a sequentila run of numbers like the 'R' stock or the 38' stock and and it's gone all awry. They should have numbered the with the middle nume denoting the position of the car in the train. I.E. 211xx 212xx 213xx 214xx 215xx 216xx 217xx. Much easier to understand. As for 'A' and 'C' stock numbering that is very logical and easy too. Whilst I quite like the 'S' numbering scheme (I actually understand it for once!), I must admit to finding the 'C' very logical. prjb's off on a 'C' Stock one again!
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Post by mandgc on Oct 6, 2006 8:57:49 GMT
Tubeprune's Stock List (Reply # 63)
I find it difficult to accept the list as other than, possibly an earlier, proposal for application in the event of the older Met Stock continuing in use. By 1942 the majority of the 'mixed' trains had been withdrawn, being replaced by the O and P stock, and were either in store or disposed of. ( The Mersey Rly. had a train of 1905 stock as a wartime spare and a few went to the Army.) A number of 'Ashbury' stock were stored in sidings of Willesden Green Goods Yard for a while. If the 'R' code had been allocated to existing stock it seems strange that 'R' should have been used again for a new Series five or six years later. Further Tubeprune describes the list as 'Drawn up' and not 'Applied ' to the trains.
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Post by tubeprune on Oct 6, 2006 11:49:18 GMT
Tubeprune's Stock List (Reply # 63) I find it difficult to accept the list as other than, possibly an earlier, proposal for application in the event of the older Met Stock continuing in use. It was drawn up but only applied as a paper exercise, I think. Several trains of the old car stock were stored in Ruislip depot. It was incomplete but enough was done to be able to get cars into the shed. I recall seeing a photo of them, years ago.
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Post by tubeprune on Oct 6, 2006 12:45:21 GMT
Now the numbering gets interesting. I observe that the 8 car sets have no de-icer cars but the 7 car ones do. The list from prjb (post #67) shows 8-car train 27 and all following trains are de-icers. I wondered why there were so many and prjb replied that Metronet had decided on that. They must think a new ice age is coming. The new trains are all about increasing capacity. If you can squeeze in an 8-car you must. Traffic is still rising on the Underground. Farringdon, Edgware Road and Hammersmith Depot will all disappear for stabling the T Cup and H & C services. Hammersmith depot is supposed to be demolished and a new yard built on the other side over the old LSWR connection. The station will also have to get extended platforms at the east end. I imagine that there will be some sort of automatic selective end door cut-out for short platforms where they don't rebuild them. Air con cabs arose because of noise at work regulations. Drivers were leaving cab doors and windows open in tunnels and the noise (particularly in the tubes) was said to damage the ears. Remember the Vic Line drivers wearing ear defenders? The number series chosen shows the second digit as the car identifier. As all cars of a type will be built the same way (it seems), the second digits in an 8-car will read: 1-2-3-4+4-3-2-1. I recall an idea that the central coupling would not be automatic and the crew would not be able to use it. Units would only be separated in a depot over a pit, like a semi-permanent coupling. I think jumpers and hoses were to be grouped around the bar and two sections bolted together or something. Quite why a shunting control is needed I don't know but I suspect it's to do with the difficulty of getting a long train into a ground wheel lathe and not being allowed to back shunt any more. To wrap up your earlier question about equipment, AIUI the DM cars will carry the compressor and the M1 cars the Auxiliary Converter. The M2s will carry de-icing on those units fitted. Receptacle boxes will be on DM and MS cars. I hope this all helps.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Oct 6, 2006 23:08:00 GMT
Farringdon, Edgware Road and Hammersmith Depot will all disappear for stabling the T Cup and H & C services. Hammersmith depot is supposed to be demolished and a new yard built on the other side over the old LSWR connection. Farringdon and Edgware Road will not take a 7 car 'S' Stock, neither will all but one road at Triangle! There are other problem locations too. Hammersmith Depot remains without any demolision work but will be relegated to stabling with no heavy maintenance.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Oct 6, 2006 23:14:36 GMT
Motorists are told not to drive with all windows closed to alleviate drowsiness and yet train drivers with far,far more responsiblity are a going to be shut in a little box for up to 5 hours with the same air going round and round. I am not trying to get into a debate on this, we have done it to death elsewhere and I know your views. Just to be clear though, the same air will not be going around and around. The system takes in 30% new air and recycles 70%. This fact won't make any difference to your viewpoint but I just thought I should make it clear. I hope the filters for the gubbins are going to be changed on a daily basis otherwise Fred with a stinking cold is going to give it to Tom ,Dick, and Harry too. The filters are easy to access and will be changed according to a strict maintenance regime. Again, not trying to start a new debate - just trying to be clear on the point.
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Post by tubeprune on Oct 7, 2006 6:42:46 GMT
Hammersmith Depot remains without any demolision work .... That's nice, the depot's 100 years old this year. I imagine it's been listed by somebody or other. Still, it will leave the connection between the station and the depot a bit tight if you extend the platforms eastwards. I think they will have to do something to the west end of the long shed......You could reduce its length to take 2 x 7-car trains rather than 3 x 6-cars. I'm glad they dumped the new depot idea. The site is too cramped, didn't have room for enough trains and the plan required a double shunt to get in and out. It was going to take 15 minutes to get a train stabled.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 7, 2006 22:30:04 GMT
Farringdon sidings arent long enough, but the tunnels for FCC to Moorgate will give some room, well, when it closes between Farringdon and Moorgate. I cant help thinking the Widened Lines could be reused to LUL's benefit somehow.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2006 16:19:11 GMT
Bogie stock (electric) "U" (was M & N Stock) Was this the M & N stock as in later Q35 stock? I thought this was designated H stock until rebuilt. By the way prjb have you been able to get that 09TS list yet?
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Oct 10, 2006 18:03:20 GMT
I would imagine some H & C's and Circle/Tea cup? will have to start and finish at Neasden,hence the Jubilee being kicked out in 2010.
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Post by tubeprune on Oct 11, 2006 11:38:06 GMT
Bogie stock (electric) "U" (was M & N Stock) Was this the M & N stock as in later Q35 stock? I thought this was designated H stock until rebuilt. No. The Met had M & N stock also. It was the "Ashbury" compartment stock. The re-lettering was because of this confusion.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2006 14:23:40 GMT
Was this the M & N stock as in later Q35 stock? I thought this was designated H stock until rebuilt. No. The Met had M & N stock also. It was the "Ashbury" compartment stock. The re-lettering was because of this confusion. So what was the difference between M and N? Was the M the 1898 built stock and the N the 1900 built stock? (Or something like that.)
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Post by tubeprune on Oct 12, 2006 6:59:19 GMT
So what was the difference between M and N? Was the M the 1898 built stock and the N the 1900 built stock? (Or something like that.) No, it wasn't like that. The Met. didn't use letters to denote types of vehicles like the District, they used it to identify train formations. So, the M Stock was 2 x 8-car trains and the N Stock was 2 x 4-car trains. It was the custom to use these trains in the same diagrams each day whenever possible. The District used letters to denote builds so a train could be made up of G, K, L etc. cars. The philosophy survived into LT days. The Q Stock was made up of vehicles of different ages, each given their own class, Q23, Q27, Q31, Q35 etc. The Met Line used trains called the T Stock but the vehicles were built over a period between 1910 and 1932. There was never any letter distinction between these.
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Post by mandgc on Oct 12, 2006 9:28:39 GMT
The Metropolitan's use of letters was to indicate the Make Up of whole trains and though the M and N trains were composed wholly of Ashbury coaches many of the other trains were made up of mixed types of coach. (See Reply # 27) Other Ashbury coaches were included in the W type trains.
The District Rly's classifications usually referred to the date of building and though the M (1935) stock originally ran in complete trains they were later mixed indiscriminately with C,D and E stock to form trains with hand worked doors.
**(Sorry Tubeprune - I took so long composing my epistle that I didn't notice you had slipped in first ! ) :-)
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Oct 12, 2006 21:39:08 GMT
By the way prjb have you been able to get that 09TS list yet? Sorry, I've been a bit tied up this week and didn't get the chance to dig them out. I promise I will post them for you shortly!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2006 3:06:27 GMT
I finally got a copy of Steam to Silver today in the mail, courtesy of ebay. I had a quick look through and read some of the Met stock classifications. The seems to indicate that the 'S' stock designation was a Met one, no mention of the LT designation. There are all sorts of old Met designations in this book, including one no one has mentioned in this thread before, 'BW' stock, which seems to have become 'Circle' stock.
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Post by tubeprune on Oct 13, 2006 8:03:11 GMT
I finally got a copy of Steam to Silver today in the mail, courtesy of ebay. The seems to indicate that the 'S' stock designation was a Met one, no mention of the LT designation. There are all sorts of old Met designations in this book, including one no one has mentioned in this thread before, 'BW' stock, which seems to have become 'Circle' stock. The S Stock was used by the Met to refer to the Special train with a lot of slam doors and a saloon interior. It was always kept as a separate train, even by LT but it was withdrawn before the war. BW refers to British Westinghouse, who became Metropolitan Vickers. They supplied traction kit to the Met. Rly as did their rivals BTH. The letters were only used to distinguish between the two types of equipment. The 90 cars which eventually became allocated to the Circle were a mix of these types. In general, as long as the two motor cars on a full length train had the same equipment, you could form a train with suitable trailers. Some of the trailers were wired for both types of control, some not. Most of the saloon bodied cars used on the extension were formed into V stock sets (V=Vestibule). Some had compartment motor cars and V Trailers (VT Stock)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2006 1:47:22 GMT
Can anyone tell me which Q23 cars were renumbered in the 1960's to make way for the 1967 stock? I now that 4148 became 4248, and I believe 4168 became 4268. Anyone have any details?
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Post by mandgc on Oct 15, 2006 3:10:32 GMT
Congratulations, jsp3970, on receiving your copy of "Steam to Silver' ! May you have many happy hours of reading!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2006 3:30:43 GMT
Now I am putting together a list of the service stock. I know that fourteen Gate stock were renumbered into the service stock, eight Hungarian and six French DM's. Does anyone have any info on these (as in what numbers they were and what 'L' numbers they received)?
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Post by Tomcakes on Oct 29, 2006 14:48:33 GMT
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Oct 30, 2006 15:31:20 GMT
Rather than start a new thread, I'll expand this one.
Is there a 'system' for deciding on stock number series for new stocks?
It all started looking good with the 92ts: series 92xxx Then we had the 96ts, introduced next: series 96xxx Then we had the 95ts, but this series was 51xxx: why?
The S stock series is 21xxx, and the 09ts is at present unknown (till prjb gets back from hols).
So - question - why was the year (first two digits) system abandoned??
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2007 23:56:01 GMT
For anyone who frequently takes a look at this website, or anyone who doesn't yet know about it, I have redesigned it to make it easy to navigate (at least I think it is easier). I also think all the bugs are ironed out. If anyone finds any please let me know. www.geocities.com/jsp3970/LUindex
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2007 0:10:46 GMT
prjb said once that the number series for the 2009TS starts with '20', but naturally I can't remember where.
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