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Post by superteacher on Aug 24, 2011 20:02:23 GMT
I'm sure the RM's on the heritage routes will have a wry smile when the bendies go!
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Post by antharro on Aug 24, 2011 20:47:49 GMT
Wilts & Dorset had a few bendies for the Bournemouth Uni services. Poor buses were repainted into pink and yellow. :-\ See www.thebusforbu.co.uk/news.shtml for their announcement (third down - "New Year, New Look") and transport.ianallanpublishing.com/?cat=1 and here for a pic! Personally, I quite like the bendies, but I don't think enough thought was given to their route allocation and how traffic and obstacles (ie, parked cars) would be managed along those routes.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2011 5:55:37 GMT
Does anyone know if the RMs on Heritage Route have a special provision to keep running as moving museums after 2017 or will they have to be withdrawn to comply with the Disability Discrimination Act like the others?
A slight aside, have you seen the mock–up of the BorisBus at the LT Museum? Whichever routes they decide to put the first five out on there better not be any tight corners, it’s huge.
Or should that be Titanic.......
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2011 7:22:41 GMT
Does anyone know if the RMs on Heritage Route have a special provision to keep running as moving museums after 2017 or will they have to be withdrawn to comply with the Disability Discrimination Act like the others? Whilst I totally support legislation to help disabled people common sense has to prevail. The Routemaster was designed in less enlightened times when the needs people with disabilities were not considered however now things a transformed in this area with the needs of disabled people always considered which is good, I do have an issue though - Where something like a Routemaster bus which is an iconic and very English does not meet the current or proposed disability legislation some areas of society will demand that because a disabled person may have difficulty or not be able to use a vehicle like a Routemaster then they should all be withdrawn and nobody can use them then! The Routemasters are working routes that are covered by other bus services that do all cater for the disabled. I am sure that the vast majority of disabled people would still like to see them running as to stop them would IMO be a victory for the politically motivated individual;s who want to destroyed everything English Should all double deckers be withdrawn or fitted with lifts because you cannot currently get a wheelchair on the upper deck? I hope that common sense prevails! Xerces Fobe
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Aug 25, 2011 9:09:33 GMT
I posed a link on here a long while back of a pathé news clip showing a disability accessable RT bus... the conductor lifted the guy onboard. Job done, ding ding.
What a pity there are so many bad reasons as to why a solution so simple could not happen now.
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Post by edwardfox on Aug 25, 2011 9:22:46 GMT
But what happens in cases where the disabled person is a rather large person? Lady in a wheelchair down our street has always been 20+ stone, even before the accident which left her in a wheelchair.
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Aug 25, 2011 10:59:00 GMT
In answer to several questions, heritage routes are unaffected by the act. All single deckers must be low floor/step free access by 2013, and all deckers the same by 2017.
The London pollution act prevents buses like the routemaster running in certain areas, but again this does not affect heritage services.
However, AIUI, these routes must be clearly labelled as heritage, and have a description along the lines of "Not a step free service"
Now, there is a potential loophole in that the routemaster is in fact step free, so in theory, a ramp could be stored, the seats directly in front of the stairs taken out, and it should get round the rules, though please don't take that as gospel, that's me just reading between the lines.
EDIT to add:
Routemasters don't have a door at the entrance, it's been against the law to drive a bus with the doors open for some time now, so use that as a guide to what they can and can't get away with.
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Aug 25, 2011 11:04:09 GMT
But what happens in cases where the disabled person is a rather large person? Lady in a wheelchair down our street has always been 20+ stone, even before the accident which left her in a wheelchair. The ramps are clearly marked with their load potential - They can carry a person plus one of those motorised foot breakers scooters with ease, so I'd have thought 20 or so stone wouldn't be a problem. Whatever the act covers, there are always going to be exceptions somewhere along the line, and there will be something to cover it or gloss over it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2011 12:32:00 GMT
SE13 - thanks for the info, if it's marked "heritage" it's exempt.
As for making them wheelchair accessable, the seats directly in front of the stairs are over the rear wheels, which is why they are sideways facing and I seem to remember that there is a step up from the platform into the "saloon". Plus how would you get a wheelchair past the pole in the middle of the open platform?
Surely any alteration to the bus would invalidated it's heritage status. Leave them as they are, moving museums.
If anyone's is wondering my ex-wife is in a wheelchair so I am fully conversant with the problems facing the disabled on public transport.
And there is no such thing as common sense, everybody’s perception of an issue is their own.
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Post by phillw48 on Aug 25, 2011 15:54:19 GMT
There is at least one Routemaster that has been fitted with a wheelchair lift IIRC in place of the second window bay. There is also a Dennis Lowline that has had seats removed and handrails modified to carry wheelchairs.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 25, 2011 17:15:01 GMT
Not so expensive, you can now find Arriva and Go Ahead’s old London Bendies in Leicester, Brighton, Liverpool and Malta, one of the few countries that has right hand drive. I'm told that there are some coming up here for the airport route, indeed there was a bright red thing seen driving around a few months ago, however I've not seen anything up here yet!
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Aug 25, 2011 17:51:40 GMT
Not so expensive, you can now find Arriva and Go Ahead’s old London Bendies in Leicester, Brighton, Liverpool and Malta, one of the few countries that has right hand drive. I'm told that there are some coming up here for the airport route, indeed there was a bright red thing seen driving around a few months ago, however I've not seen anything up here yet! They are ideal for airport work, they hold roughly 115 people now, but without the seats and give or take some luggage, you'd probably get 150 on, so less buses between aircraft and terminal. Here we were drafted some short Darts from London City Airport, back doors taken out, seats replaced etc - Now quite why they did the airport work is beyond me due to the low capacity. The one thing that worries me about driving the beasts is reversing. Part of the bus test is reversing a full length coach through an obstacle course of cones, barriers and chalk markings. One thing I learnt long before taking my bus test was how to reverse a vehicle as well as I can drive them forwards, so I've never had a problem with that side of things, but articulated reversing? I think not! Just trying to think who are the bus drivers on here, Colin and Phil certainly, perhaps they might have had the misfortune pleasure of driving a bendy and be able to comment.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2011 18:37:43 GMT
This has thrown up an interesting discussion. An old friend of mine who worked for London Buses was Pete Hendy's supervisor at Uxbridge back circa 1976! PH was the trainee! By the time I was living in Hanwell, 1988 - 92, just round the corner from the ex tram depot, PH was the gaffer at Centrewest .... He didn't hang about.
Sound used buses get redeployed quickly, as many were leased it was up to bus-lease-co to find a happy home for them. My suggestion assumed there might still be a modest pool left, that bus-lease-co might like to clean them up and rent back to KenBus, for an XO 1 Euston Rd to Olympic Park and an XO2 Embankment to Olympic Park ... It would be rather ironic wouldn't it to see Borismasters working alongside Hendy Bendies!
Seriously while the rail links to Olympicville have been delivered, so long as it all goes well on the night, OK. BUT, and a big BUT what if the Tube goes down the pan! Lots of buses ....
(This is a bit off-thread, but the demise of the bendies suggests at least one should be preserved.)
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Aug 25, 2011 19:33:36 GMT
Hmm... Well, the bus companies don't actually buy new buses outright, they are leased for the first part of their lives (Five years in the case of Stagecoach) after which they are paid in full - In the meantime, any collision damage at the fault of the operator (driver) is covered, and they rebuild or in case of fire, replace.
It's one of the reasons that the entire fleet aren't the same bus but newer or upgraded.
The basic layout can be the same, but different builders involved, for instance the Leyland Olympians are utter heaps of brown stuff, while the Volvo Olympians are a dream to drive. Bodywork almost identical, but damn fine buses and far more driver friendly.
Anyhow, a lot of what you see on the roads now outside London are destined for the scrapyard as they aren't fit for purpose, the bigger operators are sending them all over the place to maximise life while the new SLF buses are introduced to major, and ultimately minor routes.
As for preservation of bendy buses, aren't they just a fire risk? ;D
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Aug 25, 2011 20:05:53 GMT
Oh, and someone ages ago asked about bus numbering - I can only go on how Stagecoach number their fleet, but most bus operators adopt a similar system, albeit their own way.
Stagecoach work on 5 numbers:
1xxxx = Decker 2xxxx = long single decker 3xxxx = Midi single decker 4xxxx = Short single decker 5xxxx = Coach
The next number is the type, so:
19xxx = Enviro 16xxx = Volvo 14xxx = Leyland
27xxx = Enviro 200
33xxx = Dennis 34xxx = shorter Dennis
47xxx = Optare solo
5xxxx = Any coach, never quite worked that out as I've never been a coach driver.
The final 3 numbers are the actual fleet number, and generally correspond somewhere along the line with registration plate on older models.
So, as you get your "runner" in the morning, and the defect card, the numbers will now make some sort of sense, for instance, if they give me 15223, I'll know it's a Volvo decker (older model) but 33219 will be a SLF Dart, 47242 will be a heap of junk an Optare Solo.
Talking of Slavecoach bus numbers, if a certain person reads this, 14997 is in the bus graveyard, very dead, stripped of everything of any use (In the case of that shed, very little) and will probably end up wrapping soup in a can at Heinz.
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Post by pakenhamtrain on Aug 26, 2011 6:41:40 GMT
2. British drivers (and cyclists) generally show a lack of respect for buses that seems rather unique to this green and pleasant land. They seem to look upon the bus as a challenge - hence the flood of cars rushing to pass a bus when it is obvious he is trying to pull away from a stop. The length of a bendy bus presents a more interesting challenge, and when the challenger loses, it is the bendy bus that automatically gets the blame. Here it's the same. This sign is on the back of just about every single bus: www.austlii.com/au/legis/sa/consol_reg//images/1999.219.un80.jpgFor many people it seems to be a suggestion not lawArtic buses work well around these parts. Most major Australian cities have artics in some form. Most see usage on major routes(Such as Sydney Buses Metrobus routes, Adelaide Metro's O-Bahn Busway routes and in Brisbane the Busway network and Melbourne's Doncaster SmartBus routes) however they do see usage on regular bus routes and school runs where some streets aren't exactly wide(Such as in Melbourne the 811/812 and 834. While we are at it though the middle of Dandenong aswell.) They're also very handy on Rail Replacement runs.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2011 7:27:29 GMT
2. British drivers (and cyclists) generally show a lack of respect for buses that seems rather unique to this green and pleasant land. They seem to look upon the bus as a challenge - hence the flood of cars rushing to pass a bus when it is obvious he is trying to pull away from a stop. The length of a bendy bus presents a more interesting challenge, and when the challenger loses, it is the bendy bus that automatically gets the blame. I have added italic text to the most relevant part. I know you are not tarring us all with the same brush in your quote as a whole, but I should make it quite fundamentally clear that as a keen cyclist myself, [70 miles on one day, 93 miles the next], I do have a greater respect for buses, since they are bigger than me and any chance of me rushing to get past them would be negated as they'd only pass by and stop 100 yards up the road. So I let them pull out, if the drivers behind me will stop beeping their horns and making gestures about being delayed by 2 nano seconds. Should a car driver choose to do that, I'll let them pass me; they can have the exhaust fumes instead. It also pays dividends too... On routes that have those traffic calming measures, I've seen a bus coming along and have pulled aside to let them come through the 'chicanes', only to be waved on myself! ;D A friendly wave from the driver let me know it was for letting him pull out a few days previously. The car driver behind me was not so lucky and had to wait! ;D As to the bendies... I had the luxury of trying out the 18 on one occasion. Sat at the back, i was thrown from one side to the other as we negotiated the diversion around and past Warren Street tube!
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Post by 1018509 on Aug 28, 2011 21:23:40 GMT
Pity, I like the fast loading/unloading times on the 207... Back to "fighting" to get out like on the 427 I believe the 427 was only introduced because the 207's Uxbridge terminus couldn't manage bendy buses I remember when the bendys were trialled into Uxbridge before passenger operation. When more than 2 or 3 arrived a few minutes apart Uxbridge was gridlocked for hours
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Post by andypurk on Aug 28, 2011 22:16:36 GMT
In answer to several questions, heritage routes are unaffected by the act. All single deckers must be low floor/step free access by 2013, and all deckers the same by 2017. The London pollution act prevents buses like the routemaster running in certain areas, but again this does not affect heritage services. However, AIUI, these routes must be clearly labelled as heritage, and have a description along the lines of "Not a step free service" My understanding is that the heritage routes are allowed to run because they are not the only buses running on their routes; the heritage section being only a short part of a longer route which is otherwise run with newer buses. The Routemasters wouldn't be acceptable if they were the only buses running on their route, but if you are waiting for a 15 (for example), a more accessible bus will be along behind any Routemaster which comes.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Aug 28, 2011 22:35:59 GMT
Since we're severely off-topic (well, it IS rant!), the bigger implications of DDA are only now beginning to appear in the sticks. Many rural routes are being cut by Councils not prepared to pay the subsidy any more, BUT many other routes are going to go down the pan because of the DDA. A lot of these routes are operated by step-entrance buses and to buy low-floor is just not on with the limited passengers available (apart from pass-holders). To these folks, mainly non-wage-earners, the concept of bendies killing cyclists and catching fire is just a luxury - either way there is still a bus service. For them DDA is going to deprive them of their only means of getting out of their villages to the shops, those in the villages having closed due to lack of spenders (who use cars to get to a supermarket). I've seen both sides and it ain't good out of the smoke unless you're rich: the days of the country yokel are long-gone .
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Aug 28, 2011 23:27:51 GMT
Does any research into making things disability friendly factor in any possible medical and genetic advances in the forthcoming years/decades?
Further more, have the fiscal ramification of this been explored or even noted?
Surely in the long long term it would be better through genetic maipulation, stem cell research, healthier life styles and increasingly sophisticated (bio)mechanical solutions to try and minimise/cure/erradicate the causes and manifestations of disability? Especially when the alternative is to spend billions on infrastructure, which could also result in healthy persons having an increasingly sedantry lifestyle?
Not that I'm saying that increased accessibility is a bad thing by any means, nor is exclusively of benefit those of reduced physical ability; but if the upshot of this is that persons/groups/companies are forced to either spend significant capital sums on compliance or close, and the former isn't an option, the latter will surely follow. And thats worse than a service that isnt available or as convienient to a minority.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 29, 2011 0:12:04 GMT
Someone mentioned that Malta is one of the "few" countries to have RHD - there are actually quite a lot, including most of eastern and southern Africa, heavily populated countries such as Japan, Pakistan and India, and four EU countries (UK, Ireland, Malta and Cyprus).
Agreed the bendies worked well on some routes such as the 521, and the fires were not the result of their bendiness (rigid Citaros were subject to the same problem)
Finally, most of the Routemasters still in service in 2000 had been re-engined to meet modern emissions standards, and more had been planned under Ken went back on his promises: indeed their light weight (thanks to aluminium construction) meant they were decidedly greener than most modern double deckers, and very much more so than a bendibus (much of the weight of a bus in in the chassis, which is of course much longer in a bendy).
It was Travelcards and Oyster that killed the Routemaster - with fewer people buying tickets on board, the advantage of having a conductor disappeared.
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Post by andypurk on Aug 29, 2011 0:54:17 GMT
Does any research into making things disability friendly factor in any possible medical and genetic advances in the forthcoming years/decades? Further more, have the fiscal ramification of this been explored or even noted? Surely in the long long term it would be better through genetic maipulation, stem cell research, healthier life styles and increasingly sophisticated (bio)mechanical solutions to try and minimise/cure/erradicate the causes and manifestations of disability? Especially when the alternative is to spend billions on infrastructure, which could also result in healthy persons having an increasingly sedantry lifestyle? Whilst agreeing with some of your points (healthier lifestyle etc.), how much do you think that such things are such medical developments would cost society compared to alterations to infrastructure and vehicles? You might be amazed at the amount spent each year by the NHS on conditions classed as disabilities, for example diabetes. As a type 1 Diabetic, I take an interest and the cost to the NHS of type 1 and 2 diabetes, including treatment of complications, is estimated to be ~£3.5 billion per year (and is about 10% of the NHS budget). Even at this price, the costs and risks of available 'cures' for diabetes (e.g. pancreatic transplantation) are currently too high compared to costs for long term treatment. Sure things will develop, but cure of many conditions lies a long time in the future and certainly many generations of buses, trains etc. will have come and gone before we don't need designs which are accessible for DDA reasons. The problem surely is that the DDA (now superseded by the Equality Act 2010) restrictions, for vehicles, are coming in too soon. So buses and trains etc. will need expensive work to keep them running to the end of their design life or they will be replaced early. Much better would to have allowed all existing vehicles to run to the end of their expected life (unless alterations were cheap and easy) and then be replaced, with any new vehicles being designed to the new rules, rather than putting an artificial deadline in by which existing designs must be altered.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 29, 2011 7:34:04 GMT
The DDA prohibition on open platform and step entrance buses does not come into force until 2017, by which time the youngest Routemaster will be 50 years old and the youngest step entrance bus about twenty. Most buses have a shorter working life than that - how often do you see buses with "H" prefix registrations or earlier?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2011 8:11:01 GMT
The bus companies were more than happy to see the end of Routemasters and the removal of conductors for the same reason that LUL were happy to dispense with guards; staff cuts mean lower wage bills. Little surprise that they are now less than overjoyed with the thought of having to employ conductors for the Borisbus......
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Post by 1018509 on Sept 10, 2011 10:14:59 GMT
I can't travel carrying a passenger in my touring caravan because the law says not. If I can have a trailer as it were with an engine in it, something like reversing my car with caravan attached would it then be legal to carry a passenger in the caravan as this is the bendy bus set-up.
Did the law have to be changed to allow control trailer road vehicles?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 10, 2011 11:07:10 GMT
The RTA certainly admits iof the possibility of a passenger-carrying trailer "Section 41B (RTA) 41B. Breach of requirement as to weight: goods and passenger vehicles. (1) A person who: (a) contravenes or fails to comply with a construction and use requirement as to any description of weight applicable to: •a goods vehicle, or •a motor vehicle or trailer adapted to carry more than eight passengers, or (b) uses on a road a vehicle which does not comply with such a requirement, or causes or permits a vehicle to be so used, is guilty of an offence. " It's certainly permitted off road, for example trailer rides on farms. And children can be carried in trailers attached to pedal cycles. A bendybus may count as a single vehicle which happens to bend in the middle, as the "trailer" can't realistically be detached. (You coud consider the front end to be a very complex steering mechanism. A motorcycle could similarly be viewed as bending in the middle, as most of controls are pivoted to the part carrying the engine.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2011 12:23:01 GMT
Seems some of the london citaro bendybuses are now in use around Bristol on park & ride services, not that some of the locals are too happy about it.
I have noticed that low floor buises are now becoming a lot more chaper, plenty of the older optare solo's and the dreaded plaxton primos going around for about £10,000.
I think we will see some trouble towards 2019 with DDA meaning that the class 142/143/144 pacers need to be replaced, I suspect that is the reason why the cardiff valley lines network will be getting electrified.
Porterbrook are planning on refurbishing the class 156 dmu's to meet the new legislation and there is talk of the class 153's being re-formed back into 2 carriage class 155's
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