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Post by jardine01 on Aug 3, 2011 19:45:48 GMT
Is ATO going to be installed on all lines in the future so far the
Jubilee line
Central line
Victoria line
and Soon to Be rolled out on the Northern line
will the rest follow suit?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 20:40:41 GMT
ATO is planned to be installed on the sub surface lines, using Bombardiers Cityflo 650 system, as for the Bakerloo and Piccadilly, no decisions have yet been made.
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Post by melikepie on Aug 3, 2011 20:48:09 GMT
Looks like it will be installed on Thameslink and Great Northern, according to Modern Railways
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Phil
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RIP 23-Oct-2018
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Post by Phil on Aug 3, 2011 22:07:45 GMT
Looks like it will be installed on Thameslink and Great Northern, according to Modern Railways Thameslink has got to have it in the central section if the required tph is to be achieved - too many trains for manual operation. |
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Post by compsci on Aug 3, 2011 22:21:07 GMT
The thameslink is going to be head-spinning for a number of reasons. Amongst them the switch between the normal signalling system and ERTMS/ATO will need to be made while a train is in motion in the tunnel between the ECML and St Pancras LL, as it can't be done further north without resignalling most of KX, and can't be done in the platform at St Pancras LL as a train arriving there manually would break the whole rationale.
The timings are so tight (30tph to recover from disruption) that the door seals will need to disengage before a train has come to a complete stop so that the doors are free to slide the moment that the train has stopped. You can't wait 30 seconds for that to happen when you only get one minute in the platform in the first place.
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Post by tubeprune on Aug 4, 2011 6:45:08 GMT
The thameslink is going to be head-spinning for a number of reasons. Amongst them the switch between the normal signalling system and ERTMS/ATO will need to be made while a train is in motion in the tunnel between the ECML and St Pancras LL, as it can't be done further north without resignalling most of KX, and can't be done in the platform at St Pancras LL as a train arriving there manually would break the whole rationale. The timings are so tight (30tph to recover from disruption) that the door seals will need to disengage before a train has come to a complete stop so that the doors are free to slide the moment that the train has stopped. You can't wait 30 seconds for that to happen when you only get one minute in the platform in the first place. Current information in the public domain is that platform dwells will be 45s including door activation and closure. The Underground struggles to get that at busy stations so how they expect to get it on Thameslink with less doors per metre is beyond me. |
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Post by craig on Aug 4, 2011 9:54:43 GMT
Isn't the Piccadilly committed to SelTrac as part of the deal with Tube Lines?
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 4, 2011 15:07:16 GMT
But the piccadilly line is under Transport For London so its up to them which signaling system they will use. I seem to recall that TBTC may be used
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Post by craig on Aug 4, 2011 15:26:56 GMT
But the piccadilly line is under Transport For London so its up to them which signaling system they will use. Tube Lines still exists although owned by Transport for London. If Tube Lines were already committed to SelTrac then that's what it will have to be unless they want to pay to get out of the contact. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 4, 2011 16:04:34 GMT
But the piccadilly line is under Transport For London so its up to them which signaling system they will use. Tube Lines still exists although owned by Transport for London. If Tube Lines were already committed to SelTrac then that's what it will have to be unless they want to pay to get out of the contact. I understood that because of the recent announcement to delay the upgrade, all contract were to be re-tendered? |
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Aug 4, 2011 16:34:05 GMT
AIUI, the Victoria have brand new trains, Central, Jubilee, Northern, W&C have relatively new trains (as in 20 year newer), all SSL are getting new trains, and the Piccadilly and Bakerloo have been put on hold until 2020 - Thus nothing can/will be done to the latter two until such time as new trains arrive.
By the time the Bakerloo and Piccadilly fully get new trains, the existing stock will be shoving 50 years old, quite an impressive feat with A stock doing the same.
Hard to call when ATO will happen, especially as the District by then will be totally refleeted, and presumably already in ATO mode, the Central already is, and the metals run side by side or are shared depending on the situation.
I'd guess at another 10-15 years before ATO is rolled out everywhere, and if it helps save the 73s from scrapping, even longer!
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Post by br7mt on Aug 4, 2011 18:17:15 GMT
I don't think we will see SelTrac on the Piccadilly Line - Thales have already been stood down. The rumour doing the rounds is that the Cityflo 650 system will be rolled out on the Piccadilly Line as it has the most interfaces with the District and Metropolitan Lines.
Regards,
Dan
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Post by craig on Aug 4, 2011 18:24:20 GMT
The rumour doing the rounds is that the Cityflo 650 system will be rolled out on the Piccadilly Line as it has the most interfaces with the District and Metropolitan Lines. Would it be possible to install Cityflo 650 on the Jubilee line between Finchley Road and Wembley Park to allow the Met to use the Jubilee tracks or the Jubilee to use Met tracks. I know this would require crossovers at Finchley Road to be reinstated but it would be useful to have the ability to use all four tracks. |
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 4, 2011 19:01:37 GMT
Really why dident they just use Cityflo 650 signaling system on the Jubilee line instead of TBTC? It would of made more sense of the Metropolitan line if trains needed to change tracks in an emergency? Also is cityflow based on target speeds like the Jubilee? or is it more like the Central and Victoria line signaling systems?
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Post by craig on Aug 4, 2011 19:05:11 GMT
Also is cityflow based on target speeds like the Jubilee? or is it more like the Central and Victoria line signaling systems? CityFlo 650 is very much like TBTC, a moving block system. |
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Post by andypurk on Aug 4, 2011 20:26:02 GMT
Also is cityflow based on target speeds like the Jubilee? or is it more like the Central and Victoria line signaling systems? CityFlo 650 is very much like TBTC, a moving block system. Isn't one of the important differences that the Thales system uses loops laid on the track (the two wires with occasional crossover points) for much of the functionality. Whereas the CityFlo 650 system doesn't use loops but instead uses a wireless protocol, so there is less 'stuff' to be damaged by normal maintenance operations and installation is easier, not needing so many line closures. |
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Post by andypurk on Aug 4, 2011 20:33:31 GMT
Really why dident they just use Cityflo 650 signaling system on the Jubilee line instead of TBTC? It would of made more sense of the Metropolitan line if trains needed to change tracks in an emergency? This point has been bought up before. How many Jubilee line trains would you cancel to allow a few 'faster' Metropolitan line trains to run in their place. In case of any problems with the Met between Baker Street and Wembley Park more passengers will almost certainly be able to be carried on the normal (or at weekends an enhanced) Jubilee service than on services sharing the Jubilee tracks. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Aug 4, 2011 21:40:16 GMT
Really why dident they just use Cityflo 650 signaling system on the Jubilee line instead of TBTC? Basically it's a PPP thing. Both PPP firms had a choice of who to go to and thus could buy what they considered the 'best' product. Tube Lines went down the road of Seltrac TBTC, as they thought it suited their needs better. Metronet went to Bombardier and Westinghouse for DTG-R. After Metronet went into administration the Bombardier/Westinghouse contract was ripped up and retendered, with the two firms then competing for the work, and as we now know the winner was Bombardier. |
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Post by craig on Aug 4, 2011 21:50:39 GMT
Tube Lines went down the road of Seltrac TBTC, as they thought it suited their needs better. Metronet went to Bombardier and Westinghouse for DTG-R. After Metronet went into administration the Bombardier/Westinghouse contract was ripped up and retendered, with the two firms then competing for the work, and as we now know the winner was Bombardier. So has the Tube Lines contract (that would have included SelTrac TBTC on the Piccadilly) also been ripped up then? I assume the Metronet BCV has and so there won't be Westinghouse signalling on the Bakerloo. |
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