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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2011 8:28:44 GMT
Boris has plenty of money for his “Routemaster” replacement, his bike scheme, his cable car or his airport on an island but he has been cancelling projects, reducing staff and generally cutting costs on the Tube ever since he became Mayor. The cycle hire scheme is now recording 30,000 trips per day. Many of these would otherwise have been made on the tube and bus networks. This on the most crowded sections (zone 1). The scheme is going to be expanded east (2012) and then west (2013), so I can only imagine a greater number of people using the service who would otherwise have used packed tube services. The cost of running the scheme was initially estimated at £114-£140 mil over a 5 year period of which Barlcays paid £25 mil. How much does it cost to upgrade a tube line? Bombardier quote £3.4 billion as the figure they received for the contract for trains and signalling of the Vic over a 15 year period. The figures speak for themselves; the cost of upgrading a single tube line is more than all the projects you've mentioned above (aside from Thames Estuary Airport which is not funded and is a concept). If there is limited finance should investment stop in all other forms of transport because there isn't sufficient for a tube line upgrade? The tube cannot operate in isolation of the entire transport network, without the support of bus, bike, train and DLR networks, the tube system would crumble. Small(er) investments in a time of austerity when resource is scarce are vital to improve the options and service available to the travelling public. Large scale investments are taking place such as Crossrail and Thameslink (which were both on the chopping board) while the SSL and Northern upgrades are in motion too. This is along side some major LUL station upgrades that are taking place which will also tackle congestion. Moving back to the Siemens concept train. The finance period will be from 2015 and a new funding agreement will be struck with the DfT. Only once funding is secured can a tender then be put out for new train and signalling upgrades. This takes time and once contacts are awarded additional time for delivery of an upgraded service. Hence, it may take til 2018 for the new Siemens or otherwise trains to arrive on the LUL network. In short it's not that investment by LUL has stopped but slowed like every other public sector due to recession and austerity. Cuts as part of financial prudence are necessary but so is long term investment. There needs to be a balance.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2011 8:52:30 GMT
The money currently being spent on the pointless cable car could have been used to finish the step free access projects cancelled in October 2009. So which would have been of more benefit, lifts at six tube stations or trying to draw tourists to enjoy a panoramic view of Canning Town? I guess Boris gets more publicity, more photo ops.
If as predicted the tender isn’t put out until 2018 then as you say it will take time for the trains and associated upgrades to be delivered, more than likely the early/mid 20s. Or we could have another financial meltdown and the tender be withdrawn again.
Passenger figures for 2010/11
Bus – 2288m Tube – 1107m DLR – 78.4m Overground – 60m [ELL opened May 2010 and extended February 2011] Trams – 28m Cycle hire – 5m [July 2010-March 2011 only] Riverboats – 4.1m
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2011 9:56:34 GMT
If as predicted the tender isn’t put out until 2018 then as you say it will take time for the trains and associated upgrades to be delivered, more than likely the early/mid 20s. Or we could have another financial meltdown and the tender be withdrawn again. Um, I suggested the tender could be let in 2015 and that the trains could arrive by 2018. You haven't really answered the financial question - where would you get the money to improve the pace of tube line upgrades?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2011 20:36:34 GMT
Besides those staff cuts were coming whatever the Mayor in office. TFL needed to cuts costs with the current situation.
With Oyster, whats the point of so many booking offices, the DLR manages without any. There are plenty of other staff in a tube station to actually deal with passenger safety.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Aug 1, 2011 21:41:45 GMT
Mod. Comment.
Could we please stick to the subject title; staffing levels have been discussed on other boards.
Thank-you.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2011 1:54:08 GMT
I honestly like everything a bout it except for the front, just replace the the lower half of the front windows with windows and a red panel inbetween the lights. but thats just me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2011 16:56:38 GMT
To be honest I was happy to bits when I saw the tender for the 2014 stock withdrawn, the 73ts do not need replacing!
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Post by edwin on Dec 13, 2011 5:31:51 GMT
I just really don't understand why the doors are not evenly spaced. What good does it serve?
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Antje
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Post by Antje on Feb 26, 2012 22:53:58 GMT
Here is a new photo regarding the EVO. I am not sure if there is any suggestion of it being a walk-through anymore...
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 27, 2012 0:24:10 GMT
It looks pants! Only 2 sets of doors per car. Each car must be vastly shorter. The front looks horrid! ;D
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Antje
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Post by Antje on Feb 27, 2012 1:53:40 GMT
It seems to remind me of the form of the W&C cars post 1940 pre 1994. In my opinion, I recommend ATO+Guard to assist with the increasing numbers of traffic.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 27, 2012 2:42:53 GMT
The front looks horrid! ;D Other than the front, think it looks good. The front however reminds me of hooded figure whose face can't be seen other than two bright white light eyes. It's missing a face, very sinister.
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Antje
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Post by Antje on Feb 27, 2012 7:36:00 GMT
The front looks horrid! ;D Other than the front, think it looks good. The front however reminds me of hooded figure whose face can't be seen other than two bright white light eyes. It's missing a face, very sinister. I can assume easily that the development may in the early stages, similar to the fact that the driver-less proposal isn't final as far as I know. Even if they settle for ATO, I hope that the manufacturer would at least cut a window on the cab door for passengers to look ahead: that would be nice in my opinion.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 27, 2012 11:59:51 GMT
DWS, can't seem to get that link to work. Goes to a file that doesn't have an extension, so windows throws a hissy? Is it of the train further down?
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Post by trt on Feb 28, 2012 9:47:48 GMT
It looks pants! Only 2 sets of doors per car. Each car must be vastly shorter. The front looks horrid! ;D Surely more doors would mean less dwell time at the platform. When it's crowded, it can take an age for those getting off to do so, and that introduces even more delays and possible damage when the people who are trying to get on become trapped and/or force the doors.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 28, 2012 13:37:25 GMT
Generally speaking yes. However doors/car isn't really that useful a metric when the cars are different lengths. | Car length | doors per car | Avg spacing | S stock (DM) | 17.4m | 3 | 5.8m | S stock (NDM) | 15.4m | 3 | 5.1m | 1972 stock (DM) | 16.1m | 2.5[1] | 6.4m | 1972 stock (NDM/T) | 16.0m | 3[2] | 5.3m | EVO concept (?) | 11.0m[3] | 2 | 5.5m |
These figures are only rough though as they don't take into account space taken up with cabs, doorway widths, uneven spacing, internal layout, etc. However you can see that the density of doors is comparable. [1]2 double doors, 1 single door [2]2 double doors, 2 single doors [3]I can't find how long the cars are on this concept model but the predecessor Space Train concept had ~11 metre cars [4] and also had 2 doors/car and it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume similar for this concept. [4]According to this 2007 post by stephenk.
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Post by trt on Feb 28, 2012 13:45:55 GMT
What's needed is a model of the surface area for "passenger" exchange (like gas exchange!) I'm sure there is some work could be done on ensuring that the available space for people to get off isn't blocked by other passengers. Those single doors are a real bottleneck, and at King's X, you might as well have all single doors because people on the platform crowd the entrances/exits to that degree!
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Post by Chris M on Feb 28, 2012 15:18:41 GMT
I know that pedestrian flow models exist, indeed I have a vague recollection of having seen one for a D stock some years ago? But I think the discipline is newer than the 1960s when the existing Bakerloo fleet was being designed.
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Post by trt on Feb 28, 2012 15:53:23 GMT
From www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/foi/Rolling_stock_Data_Sheet_2nd_Edition.pdf 72ts doors are 1400mm and 700mm wide (I'm using 1600 and 800, though because of conflicting data) From www.rail.co/2011/02/06/revolution-on-the-tube/ 72ts doors are 1600mm wide, EVO are 1800mm wide. EVO stock, 9 cars, 2 double doors per car, 1800mm per door equals 32.4 metres of opening side. 72ts, 7 cars, 14 double doors and 11 single doors per set, equals 31.2 metres of opening side. So an improvement of only 4%. However, as these are all double doors, they may be more effective. Time will tell.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 23:12:01 GMT
On the other hand an EVO train would have 36 door leaves compared with 39 on 72 stock, so a reduction of three leaves on the new trains. Hopefully the extra width per door means three people will fit through each door at once rather than two, meaning a substantial increase in simultaneous boardings/alightings. If not they'll need to increase the number of doors, either by making the cars shorter or adding a single leaf door to each car.
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Antje
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Post by Antje on Feb 29, 2012 0:35:01 GMT
1368.425m or 4'-5.875" since the 67TS is mostly identical by design to 72TS.
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Post by trt on Mar 5, 2012 14:27:54 GMT
On the other hand an EVO train would have 36 door leaves compared with 39 on 72 stock, so a reduction of three leaves on the new trains. Hopefully the extra width per door means three people will fit through each door at once rather than two, meaning a substantial increase in simultaneous boardings/alightings. If not they'll need to increase the number of doors, either by making the cars shorter or adding a single leaf door to each car. There's also the question of how that would work at the platform. EVO will presumably have a high degree of stopping accuracy, like the Jubilee line, so the learned commuter will bunch up ready to board, blocking the exit of people already on the carriage and causing lumpiness in the even distribution of bodies on the platform. More doors = smoother flow, surely?
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Post by fleetline on May 1, 2012 20:07:44 GMT
Just throw this in here, the new Class 700 Desiro Cities for Siemens will have doors in the standard 1/3 & 2/3 position on all trains. With extra space by the doors (stand back positions) they worked out that 1,000 can leave/enter train in 30 seconds. That with 24 doors that are slightly wider than normal NR standards. And thats using modern flow technology to map out passenger flows, so it's about allowing easy access to the doors as much as door width.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2012 21:10:30 GMT
Just throw this in here, the new Class 700 Desiro Cities for Siemens will have doors in the standard 1/3 & 2/3 position on all trains. With extra space by the doors (stand back positions) they worked out that 1,000 can leave/enter train in 30 seconds. That with 24 doors that are slightly wider than normal NR standards. And thats using modern flow technology to map out passenger flows, so it's about allowing easy access to the doors as much as door width. Firstly, I'd be like to see them type testing a throughput of that level. 1000 through 24 doors in 30 seconds means 42 through each door. That is a person every 0.7 seconds. With people shuffling in, arranging bags, checking seats are clean etc as they sit down, that seems a ridiculous claim to me. That whilst people are moving from the other end of the car also. Another thing to consider is that with tube trains, I'd imagine one of the main constraints to be the standing width between longitudinal seating. This governs how quickly people can "move down the car", and is probably the reason why 3/4 door positions per side has traditionally been more favoured on tube stock.
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Post by v52gc on May 1, 2012 21:48:34 GMT
Stand back positions as fleet line puts it, is very very important in my view.
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Post by fleetline on May 2, 2012 10:07:58 GMT
Firstly, I'd be like to see them type testing a throughput of that level. 1000 through 24 doors in 30 seconds means 42 through each door. That is a person every 0.7 seconds. With people shuffling in, arranging bags, checking seats are clean etc as they sit down, that seems a ridiculous claim to me. That whilst people are moving from the other end of the car also. Another thing to consider is that with tube trains, I'd imagine one of the main constraints to be the standing width between longitudinal seating. This governs how quickly people can "move down the car", and is probably the reason why 3/4 door positions per side has traditionally been more favoured on tube stock. All testing is done on computer simulation. Have seen a bit of the simulation but as the DfT speced up that 1,000 passengers need to exit/board I haven't seen how compliant the bids are. We may never know. Fact that the trains are designed to allow free movement of people thought the train will help make maximum use of doorways. It's interesting you bring up the seating arrangements. I wonder how much affect that will have on passenger seating on a more suburban network like Thameslink that shares metro duties come 2018. Stand back positions as fleet line puts it, is very very important in my view. Extremely so. With airport passengers and luggage, this increases the need for them.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2012 17:58:56 GMT
I am certainly concerned about small windows. Do designers realise that on most lines tube stock travels more above ground than underneath it?
When the design for the new Victoria line stock was unveiled a spokesman said of the window size, that this would be acceptable on the Victoria line as it was entirely underground but would not be for those lines with considerable above ground route mileage.
I imagine travelling from Barons Court or Leyton to Epping in the cigar tube would be a somewhat claustrophobic experience. Interesting that currently LU proclaims the 'bigger windows' on the S stock.
But, no doubt the passenger environment is not top of design priorities.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2012 19:11:05 GMT
I am certainly concerned about small windows. Do designers realise that on most lines tube stock travels more above ground than underneath it? When the design for the new Victoria line stock was unveiled a spokesman said of the window size, that this would be acceptable on the Victoria line as it was entirely underground but would not be for those lines with considerable above ground route mileage. I imagine travelling from Barons Court or Leyton to Epping in the cigar tube would be a somewhat claustrophobic experience. Interesting that currently LU proclaims the 'bigger windows' on the S stock. But, no doubt the passenger environment is not top of design priorities. I agree about the claustrophobic issues. The windows on tube trains seem to be heading back to the original padded cells of the City and South London Railway. I dislike bus/coach design with huge windows which easily break and increase injury and fatalities when they have an accident, especially in a rollover.
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Post by Deep Level on May 8, 2012 0:30:46 GMT
I'm not gonna lie, that train looks extremely comfortable and I think the small windows just add to that warm and comfortable feel, especially underground.
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Post by Chris M on May 9, 2012 16:59:27 GMT
I was also thinking those seats looked mighty comfortable!
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