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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2011 12:46:24 GMT
Please do say it - discourse is the very point of the forum and if it explains what you had meant in a way that looks less inflammatory and more realistic then I would like to know your view.
I can promise you in my example I certainly wasn't trying to get on before others had left - plenty of others had boarded before me. Whether those entering or exiting were the ones at fault I don't know, but I was affected by it and did not like the idea that being caught in the doors automatically suggests a lack of common sense in the opinion of a member of this - normally rational - forum.
You're right that people should leave time for journeys when possible but right at this moment every train is overcrowded because there are severe delays and nothing running past Kings Cross - that is not the fault of the passengers and for those heading to Heathrow from areas like Earls Court and South Ken there are few clear alternatives.
When I entered the Earls Court Eastbound Picc line platform an hour ago a train was leaving and had heard no mention of delays until I had already been on the platform for several minutes. By this time the platform was filling up quickly - again, it's not always possible to pre-judge a situation so I refute that there is "no need" for overcrowding in the same way that it would be wrong to claim there is no reason for a train to break down at Arsenal - it's part of life, isn't it?
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Post by james66526 on May 9, 2011 0:28:18 GMT
I seem to remember a while ago someone being caught in the doors of a 95 at Euston. The driver got really annoyed and cut out the csde mcb. He then drove a short distance down the platform, stopped opened the door again and then carried on as normal.. I bet she never did that again! It's professionalism like that which really makes me proud...
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Post by railtechnician on May 9, 2011 0:47:29 GMT
Please do say it - discourse is the very point of the forum and if it explains what you had meant in a way that looks less inflammatory and more realistic then I would like to know your view. I believe that comment may be aimed at me although you didn't quote me! There is nothing inflammatory in my words, if that is your perception it can only be as a result of recognising the truth in them. You know in almost 30 years working on the system and more than 50 using it I am certainly no stranger to the habits of passengers. While I would make allowances for tourists there can be none for the daily commuter who really should know what to expect and in so doing have more regard for his/her own safety and comfort. If one is prepared to play sardines on a daily basis one must expect to take a few knocks and get squeezed to a greater or lesser extent. The system is busy so you have to take the rough with the smooth but common sense can weigh the balance in the right direction!
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North End
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Post by North End on May 9, 2011 2:09:39 GMT
I seem to remember a while ago someone being caught in the doors of a 95 at Euston. The driver got really annoyed and cut out the csde mcb. He then drove a short distance down the platform, stopped opened the door again and then carried on as normal.. I bet she never did that again! Sounds a bit far fetched. To get the train to motor without the doors being proved closed, the Train Operator would have to operate the doors interlock cut-out switch, which on a 95 stock is secured with a seal which would need to be broken. As others have said, operating this switch without good reason and reporting the circumstances to the Line Controller, could quite likely be considered as gross misconduct. It is however possible for the train to roll (brakes released but no motors available) without the pilot light, and if this incident happened at all as described then that is the most likely explanation. This could still result in the Train Operator having some awkward questions to answer, but is not in the same category as cutting out safety equipment. Likewise, this may not have been a deliberate action -- some Train Operators select minimum brake as the doors are closing, in order to get a quicker getaway (avoiding the delay of 1 or 2 seconds as the brakes fully release). Maybe the train rolled a short distance before the Train Operator released there was a problem, and then immediately took steps to resolve the situation. Please don't post (erroneous) accusations detailing presumed actions of members of staff without being in possession of supporting evidence.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2011 4:49:28 GMT
North End - a TOp got shown the door this year for letting a train roll while someone had their foot in the door. Sadly the someone was a DMT. The TOp saved themselves a few seconds and saved LUL £42k p.a. My brakes stay on until I get the "pilot" because I want to retire with my full pension in 15 years time.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 9:12:47 GMT
in almost 30 years working on the system and more than 50 using it I am certainly no stranger to the habits of passengers. Maybe I rather naïvely thought this would be a place for healthy debate on the "interface" between users and professionals with things to learn on both sides. Now I just think it's really sad someone would have built up such a clear disregard for users. I had never taken to task any other post on this forum as being unfair - but having just been in trapped in doors so recently I was quite horrified to think a professional might consider it's our own fault *every* time. I know plenty of people do daft/bizarre/dangerous things and we all see groups rushing in and out of doors at the last moment, but there are lots of ways in which paying users are let down by poor clarity of announcements, lack of information, service problems, or systems that cause confusion rather than remove it. Not every speaker works, not every door beeps, not every person entering or leaving is able to move quickly and not everyone has used the system before. They are not "thoughtless". As for the "no need for overcrowding" - I promise you if there were a simple way to avoid it on daily journeys to & from work many would be trying to adopt it, but for example how long is one supposed to wait at Earl's Court after 4pm for a train headed to Wimbledon that *isn't* packed full? I've caught trains at just about every point in time upto 7.30pm and rarely could the carriages be described as less than overcrowded. In my previous post I believe I explained a very good reason why platform overcrowding might occur without any fault resting with the users of the service and it so simple to see that if people are on a quiet tube platform and the train doesn't arrive - that platform will get crowded. If the board shows the train is 1 minute away and 5 minutes later no train has arrived, we have been misled and let down - not "thoughtless". I hope to God I'm not alone here. karona
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 10:24:43 GMT
I think you're right, karona; I guess years of service means that you've seen it all and can be a bit too quick to judge at times. Overcrowding IS a serious problem on certain places on the network, which is why upgrades are happening.
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Post by railtechnician on May 11, 2011 10:29:23 GMT
I think you're right, karona; I guess years of service means that you've seen it all and can be a bit too quick to judge at times. Overcrowding IS a serious problem on certain places on the network, which is why upgrades are happening. The upgrades will not do as much for relief of overcrowding as you are probably expecting!
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North End
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Post by North End on May 11, 2011 11:25:43 GMT
I think you're right, karona; I guess years of service means that you've seen it all and can be a bit too quick to judge at times. Overcrowding IS a serious problem on certain places on the network, which is why upgrades are happening. Given the amount of door closing operating which take place each day, it's inevitable that there will be occasions when people will become caught in the doors. A very small minority of these result in injuries - rarely serious. The problem is that, again, a minority of passengers, rather than accepting it as "one of those things", instead choose to make a complaint about the incident. This then results in a lot of time (and money) spent interviewing staff, reviewing CCTV, checking the rolling stock concerned, (and potentially causing cancellations if the train is unavailable for service whilst the checks take place) in pretty much all cases to conclude the passenger rushed to board the train whilst the door closure sequence was underway. From the passenger's point of view, there needs to be a greater understanding that at some stage the doors have to be closed -- otherwise no train would ever go anywhere. The sensitive edge is one solution to the problem, but like a lot of things on the railway, a solution to one problem is the creation of another ..
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 21:24:16 GMT
From the passenger's point of view, there needs to be a greater understanding that at some stage the doors have to be closed -- otherwise no train would ever go anywhere Absolutely. The ones who hear the bleeping while they are still coming down the stairs and yet rush onto the platform thinking they should be able to get in are not really being fair on others who entered on arrival and are ready to go, that's for sure! If the beeps and driver + platform announcements don't seem to be getting through, maybe added clear visual symbols would be the key here - and these may sound fanciful but here goes: If the doors had triangular graphics along the edging (resembling sharp teeth) people might think twice before charging through them as they close! It would just make them look a bit less inviting as they draw across/together. Or maybe less radical - what about a glowing ring of light around the door adopting the universally recognised green & red go/stop colouring? A green glow around the door turning to red just before they start to close would be a very noticeable jump and red really does say "stop" to tourists and commuters alike. As for spoken announcements - well they seem to come in all shapes and sizes and maybe a variety of wordings does help to get the message out clearly. I may be old fashioned but I think the driver who says "please don't hold the doors - you're delaying everyone and there's another train coming very soon" is giving a far more effective message than another I heard: "if you don't let the doors close I'm taking this train out of service". That really misses the mark since the one person holding the doors is usually not even sure they can get in anyway so really doesn't care!
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2011 10:16:26 GMT
Overcrowding. This happens everywhere, and happens even more if you make certain places 'hubs' of business and commerce. As more people pile into these areas, overcrowding will continue to get worse. So, you have capacity improvements, which reduces headway between trains, meaning more trains... for this to work in harmony, you need everyone to cooperate as much as possible with the system. Most passengers might look at the DMI once or twice, however, the Linford Christies of the station, who come charging down the escalators, hearing the door beeps, and then do Swan Lake with the Doors, are the ones that cause delays. Its not like its the last train for a week, is it? A little bit more thought and a cursory glance at the DMI would probably show the next train in the direction you're going, will be in the platform, in one or two minutes. Not a long time to wait, is it? Instead of barging people out of the way, who have waited patiently, slow down a little; a moments thought for others goes along way. Again, this applies when the train arrives; "Please let passengers off first!" Passengers complain about delays, then go and delay the train themselves by getting their foot stuck in the door, or bag, coat, umbrella, or other accoutrement. It really does border on selfishness; the ones that plainly refuse to let go or remove the object they are blocking the doors with are the ones that rile me. You can try reopen and reclose two or three times and they still hold the door, because they're a family with 19 suitcases and have to get the train just about to depart. So, not only have they delayed their holiday and check in by a few minutes, they've also delayed 200,000 fellow passengers, on successive trains. I go back and investigate and find people tut-tutting over the delay. Make a point and say to them it would help if people stopped holding the doors, and its like we should lay out the red carpet and just let them saunter around. its like we should wait! Then nothing is going anywhere! A little more thought from the small minority of regular users who create issues, would go a long way to help everyone. Those that don't know because they are unsure of the system due to being a tourist or visitor, whatever, if you're a regular, and a fellow passenger looks a little lost, try to help them!!!! Don't pretend they are not there by looking busy. Problem also arises at particular stations whereby regulars crowd particular carriages, so they can get off and do a Linford Christie again. "Oh, got to be first off, first through the barrier, I'm in a rush, I have a meeting." The rest of the train may be empty! So, instead of trying in vain to save 15 seconds by pushing onto a car thats already packed solid, walk down the platform a little. Granted you might have to walk a little more back to the exit at your destination, but you might be able to travel without having your nose so close to someones armpit as you would have done trying to pack into the aforementioned sardine car. And to end... you're not forced to travel like sardines. You make the choice. Its your call.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2011 10:20:27 GMT
Or maybe less radical - what about a glowing ring of light around the door adopting the universally recognised green & red go/stop colouring? A green glow around the door turning to red just before they start to close would be a very noticeable jump and red really does say "stop" to tourists and commuters alike. Sounds similiar to what's done in Berlin - No idea if it works though.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2011 10:30:12 GMT
But how many people would pay attention to that, here, in London? Even if you had klaxons and an air raid type siren above every door, you'd still get people pushing and shoving.
My motto. You choose to commute, then you take the rough with the smooth. Smooth is the rewards in your job, rough is the overcrowding, delays, cost, and sniffing other passengers armpits. its you, as a passenger, who makes the choice to commute vast distances. That is your choice, because you want to reap the benefits. If the benefits are worth the rough, then carry on with the commute, but please, just have a little thought about things, before pushing onto one doorway, because its more convenient for the exit at destination.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2011 10:45:06 GMT
I've seen cases of people doing stupid things around the doors - but also, seen plenty of door problems not (directly) the fault of customers.
"Let people off first" is a sensible, fair enough rule - but it has a related rule, rarely actually stated: "Be ready to get off the train when it arrives at your destination." - if you're not ready you can hardly expect priority. I had this happen on Chiltern once... on a very busy night, a Wrexham & Shropshire train from Wrexham, due to go back, did not reach Marylebone due to delays caused by flooding at Ruabon, and was being turned short at Banbury. Everyone for that train was being directed to take the next Birmingham service as far as Banbury to meet the Wrexham train. The Birmingham train was slightly delayed coming in and would be late leaving. The doors opened and lots of people got off. So, lots of people start boarding the train. I just get to the door and the last arriving passenger suddenly appears and blasts us for not letting people off first. I was not the only one who said to him "You should have been ready to get off, especially on a delayed train!".
Loads of people ignore the door warnings. I almost never do - the only time I do is if I am changing trains and have just reached the door when it starts, and even then only if there is clearly plenty of room. At the moment, my morning journey uses the Jubilee and Metropolitan lines and DLR, the Met serving as a way to "jump ahead" between Wembley Park and Finchley Road. At Finchley Road, the door beeps started before I got to the Jubilee Line train, and the doors were closing before I reached the right point. However (wonder of wonders!), the doors reopened. I reached Canning Town and made my way up to the DLR - a Tower Gateway train arrived just as I did. However, I could not get to it in a straight line because of the volume of walking customers. There was a distant shout to mind the doors, and the beeps started just as I got there. I boarded anyway... and then noticed the doors being unlocked again, and then the "bong" of the signal clearing. Doors are not usually closed on DLR if the signal is not clear.
On trains without a door warning, it is often more of a problem.
I've come close to being shut in at Bank - being in the group of people getting off at a particular door, and only just made it to between the doors when the warning starts. I have also been left with no time to board at the only door I could reach in similar circumstances. These are particularly frustrating incidents.
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cso
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Post by cso on May 12, 2011 11:15:58 GMT
I have to say I've suffered the effect of so many people getting off the train, that passengers waiting to board couldn't actually get on - usually at Wembley Park around 6PM waiting on an Uxbridge Service.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2011 14:01:35 GMT
From the Transport for London Railway Byelaws
10. Trains
1. No person shall enter through any train door until any person leaving by that door has passed through.
5. In the case of automatic closing train doors, no person shall enter or leave by the door when it is closing.
11. General safety
1. No person shall move, operate, obstruct, stop or in any other way interfere with any automatic closing train door, train, or any other equipment on the railway except: (i) in an emergency, by means of any equipment on or near which is a notice indicating that is intended to be used in an emergency; or (ii) any equipment intended for the use of passengers in that way in normal operating circumstances.
That’s pretty straight forward. Any questions?
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2011 14:51:01 GMT
Byelaw 10.1: How can you determine for sure that any person leaving by that door has passed through? If they are having difficulty getting to it, there could be "dead" time at the door - so common sense would have to be applied. Or, like the passenger on Chiltern, seemingly not bothering to make his way to the door until after people have started to board.
It's a good rule but includes an indeterminate "wait for something that might never happen" when read literally.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2011 16:10:32 GMT
I think the argument would run that if someone isn’t actually attempting to leave at the time when you approach the door then you may enter. If they’re faffing around inside then that isn’t regarded as leaving, M’lud.
The defence rests….
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Post by Chris M on May 12, 2011 18:28:14 GMT
11. General safety 1. No person shall move, operate, obstruct, stop or in any other way interfere with any automatic closing train door, train, or any other equipment on the railway except: (i) in an emergency, by means of any equipment on or near which is a notice indicating that is intended to be used in an emergency In an emergency I'm going to use anything suitable available to stop the train/door/whatever, regardless of whether it is marked as being for emergency use or not.
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Post by rincew1nd on May 12, 2011 19:50:00 GMT
So you are on a platform and the Engineers have left a SCD lying around, someone falls off the edge. Do you grab the SCD and use it, or do you press the Emergency Stop button?
I'm not expecting an answer, but to my mind, the byelaw says "we've given you Emergency Stop stuff, if you need to stop a train, use that please!"
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Post by railtechnician on May 12, 2011 20:43:24 GMT
So you are on a platform and the Engineers have left a SCD lying around, someone falls off the edge. Do you grab the SCD and use it, or do you press the Emergency Stop button? I'm not expecting an answer, but to my mind, the byelaw says "we've given you Emergency Stop stuff, if you need to stop a train, use that please!" SCDs are not just left lying around! As for the emergency stop button, there isn't one on the Picc or most other lines. In tube and subsurface areas there are the tunnel telephones and there are standalone T/T plungers too where a current gap is within 400' of a platform but I wouldn't expect the average passenger or indeed the vast majority to use the T/T system which is there to remove the traction current in an emergency. T/Ts are really for staff use but while a passenger might use a telephone or plunger when faced with an emergency they might not be able to locate one quickly, most are tucked away in cubby holes although labelled and of course they are all sealed too to deter unwarranted interference. I'm pretty certain the byelaw regarding passenger use of emergency equipment is specifically referring to emergency buttons or handles found on trains and similar devices which may be found on platforms and appropriately labelled as emergency devices with penalties for misuse. The use of anything not so labelled could leave the passenger so doing open to prosecution and that of course is a judgement call which many would probably choose to decline. Of course in a real emergency the act would no doubt be mitigated by a positive outcome but otherwise the penalties could be quite stiff and much more than the LUL misuse penalty for equipment intended for passenger use! The bottom line really is that the best thing to do in an emergency is to tell a member of staff immediately if one is available or after pressing a button or pulling a handle specifically designed for passenger use. PAPs (Passenger Assistance Points - with red pull handles) and PHPs (Passenger Help Points - the white pillboxes) are there to be so used.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2011 17:05:41 GMT
I always thought, with the Piccadilly line being a high risk line (No in-cab CCTV), they haven't installed emergency stop buttons on platforms, which turn the signals to red for two train lengths outside the station etc....
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Post by railtechnician on May 15, 2011 20:24:24 GMT
I always thought, with the Piccadilly line being a high risk line (No in-cab CCTV), they haven't installed emergency stop buttons on platforms, which turn the signals to red for two train lengths outside the station etc.... Obviously your thoughts are confused because what you have written makes no sense at all, perhaps you can clarify it. The Picc is no more high risk than any other line. IMO in cab CCTV (TTCCTV) is not perhaps as robust as fixed CCTV installations. That was certainly true of the original tranche of Central line TTCCTV.
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Post by causton on May 15, 2011 20:26:44 GMT
I think it means that if the train is 2 car lengths outside the station emergency stop buttons will still halt it, and because the Picc stock has no in-cab CCTV the driver won't be able to see what's going on on the platform...
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2011 7:40:07 GMT
I think it means that if the train is 2 car lengths outside the station emergency stop buttons will still halt it, and because the Picc stock has no in-cab CCTV the driver won't be able to see what's going on on the platform... How would an emergency stop button halt a Picc train? On the Central Line the “code busters” set the speed to zero but on the Picc once the cab has cleared the headwall and the station starter the TOp cannot see the platform so they wouldn’t stop until the next signal or it was rear tripped.
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Post by railtechnician on May 16, 2011 10:38:44 GMT
I think it means that if the train is 2 car lengths outside the station emergency stop buttons will still halt it, and because the Picc stock has no in-cab CCTV the driver won't be able to see what's going on on the platform... How would an emergency stop button halt a Picc train? On the Central Line the “code busters” set the speed to zero but on the Picc once the cab has cleared the headwall and the station starter the TOp cannot see the platform so they wouldn’t stop until the next signal or it was rear tripped. One other possibility is that an onboard passenger pushes the emergency button and the train is still within station limits. My recollection is that the driver should stop in such circumstances but if the cab has passed the last car marker board s/he must continue to the next station before stopping. I agree that no action from anyone on the platform will stop a train that has passed the headwall and starter.
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Post by Chris M on May 19, 2011 8:37:09 GMT
kkc's suggestion though is to put emergency stop buttons on the platform that would stop the train if any part of it is in the platform. They're suggesting that this could be done by means of the emergency stop button setting signals to red, but sounding an alarm in the cab, like for an on-train alarm, would possibly be more effective.
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Post by railtechnician on May 19, 2011 9:28:07 GMT
kkc's suggestion though is to put emergency stop buttons on the platform that would stop the train if any part of it is in the platform. They're suggesting that this could be done by means of the emergency stop button setting signals to red, but sounding an alarm in the cab, like for an on-train alarm, would possibly be more effective. Actually I don't see any suggestion to that effect in his comment. However, were it to be so and as you have phrased it I see it as impossible without increasing the number of signals. Once the train has passed the starter in most cases it would be out of the platform completely before approaching the next signal, hence the equipping of station limit areas with car marker boards.
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Post by Chris M on May 19, 2011 10:45:14 GMT
Which is why I suggested doing it by means other than signals would be better. If communicating to an alarm on the train isn't possible, then you could do with pseudo-signals - red lights atop each car marker board. These normally show no light, but when the emergency stop button is pressed, they all switch on and the t/op has to stop if he sees them. They needn't be integrated at all with proper signalling system (which would make them technologically trivial).
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Post by railtechnician on May 19, 2011 13:18:28 GMT
Which is why I suggested doing it by means other than signals would be better. If communicating to an alarm on the train isn't possible, then you could do with pseudo-signals - red lights atop each car marker board. These normally show no light, but when the emergency stop button is pressed, they all switch on and the t/op has to stop if he sees them. They needn't be integrated at all with proper signalling system (which would make them technologically trivial). Yep but there's a whole tin of worms associated with such a system. Would one really want passengers to be communicating with the driver in this way? Platform buttons that may/may not stop a train are not a perfect solution to a problem that may/may not be an issue. I'm not sure that red lights would be appropriate as they could be confused with signals. The original OMO red cross on white light with yellow diamond display board might be more appropriate. Every marker board is a lot of new signals whether they are simple lamps or something more, apart from initial outlay and installation there is the question of the extra cost of additional maintenance, routine testing etc. What if the lamps should fail 'ON', just how quickly should a driver react to such lamps. Lots of possibilities to consider requiring new rules, regulations and procedures. Would the cost be worth it for the relatively negligible number of incidents that one is attempting to mitigate. I think a risk analysis would show that it isn't. The money would be far better spent educating joe public to take more care, act more responsibly and accept full responsibility for his/her own actions.
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