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Post by jardine01 on Mar 12, 2011 20:56:35 GMT
I was just wondering does the Jubilee line drive Manual on Sundays like the central line does in the open sections does anybody know does the Jubilee line do the same?
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Post by Tubeboy on Mar 12, 2011 21:39:04 GMT
Sunday is the same as other days, Manual Dollis Hill-Stanmore until J5 is completed. Dollis-Stratford in TBTC.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2011 5:41:50 GMT
As far as I'm aware, no decision has been made as to whether weekends/bank holidays will be driven in PM or ATO.
In my opinion (for what it's worth), ATO will be used every day until after the Olympics. Then, perhaps PM will be used as and when.
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North End
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Post by North End on Mar 14, 2011 10:10:24 GMT
As far as I'm aware, no decision has been made as to whether weekends/bank holidays will be driven in PM or ATO. In my opinion (for what it's worth), ATO will be used every day until after the Olympics. Then, perhaps PM will be used as and when. At the moment I guess it's not an issue because there is still manual driving on the section north of Dollis Hill. However when that section goes ATO, some sort of arrangement for manual driving will (or maybe I should say *should*) have to be in place, to allow Train Operators to maintain their skills, both in driving in PM, and driving skills in general. I would guess that we may see Sunday driving maybe on a quiet section like Wembley Park to Stanmore. |
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Post by 21146 on Mar 14, 2011 12:14:07 GMT
I would thimk manual driving would be confined to in and out of depot, as per the Victoria Line. Very boring for T/Ops and I suspect even more staff will apply to cross-transfer as a result.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2011 19:03:59 GMT
Someone told me there would be a facility for the Victoria line to be driven in full speed manual and that this would be used to keep driving skills up to date
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Post by jardine01 on Mar 14, 2011 20:22:03 GMT
must be very boring for the driver pressing 2 start buttons surley they surley must be allowed to drive manually at certain times of day?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2011 13:08:54 GMT
Hello,
Keeping some periods with manual driving may be wise in order to maintain drivers' ability to drive in case of a failure of ATO.
Maybe it is not an issue (either ATO never goes wrong or nobody bother if the line is suspended!)
In Paris metro, a (more or less) recent accident lead to formalizing the request for each driver to achieve one round trip a day in manual mode.
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Post by jardine01 on Mar 15, 2011 18:06:38 GMT
I thought its up to the driver to drive in ATO or Protected Manual mode?
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Post by version3point1 on Mar 17, 2011 16:22:13 GMT
A large majority of drivers put the train into PM before departing West Ham on the eastbound, to accommodate for stopping at Stratford Staff Hall if there are staff waiting there (following past complications). Apart from that, depot and siding moves, and Dollis Hill-Stanmore, can't say I've heard anybody else driving in PM elsewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2011 10:13:08 GMT
If ATO there is anything like it is on the Central Line then they'll get plenty of practise driving in manual, yesterday morning I had three failures on one trip between West Ruislip and Leytonstone.
Here if we choose to go "coded" any time or any place other than Sundays on open sections we are supposed to ask the Line Controller but a lot of us just do it on warm sunny days so we can drive with the cab doors open. They don't mind as long as we aren't delaying the service.
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Post by jardine01 on May 10, 2011 18:35:51 GMT
I think Manual driving l would be a great Idea from Wembly Park to Stanmore, however i think PM will be used quite allot in the open sections if its raining heavy and in the autumn with leaves on the line? I know on the Central line of trains overshooting in ATO because of slippy tracks.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2011 1:24:30 GMT
This isn't like manual driving on the Vic or Central though is it - You're driving to a (generally) moving target, which means you're going to have your eyes less on the road and more on the Distance to Go readout.
I think that's got a lot to do with why ATO is used at all times on the Jubilee, in the same way that ATO (of sorts) is used at all times on the DLR.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2011 6:25:34 GMT
Perhaps a HUD would be useful  I assume that the Jubilee's system gives the same up/down chime indications as the Central's ATP? |
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Post by jardine01 on May 14, 2011 8:13:58 GMT
I agree it must be hard driving in TBTC in Protected Manual Mode as its a moving target so you could have a target speed of 40 for example you could reach 40 then have to brake to 20mph for example?
Really, it think they should of made TBTC mode in manual easier for drivers if they need to use it! Also really you need to look at the TOD ( Train Operators Display) all the time which is quite dangerous!
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2011 8:32:42 GMT
Jardine I'm up for correction on this one but I think there is advance warning of an upcoming speed restriction with TBTC...
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2011 8:43:11 GMT
I agree it must be hard driving in TBTC in Protected Manual Mode as its a moving target so you could have a target speed of 40 for example you could reach 40 then have to brake to 20mph for example? Really, it think they should of made TBTC mode in manual easier for drivers if they need to use it! Also really you need to look at the TOD ( Train Operators Display) all the time which is quite dangerous! Why is it hard to brake after accelerating - train ops have to do that all the time. The system allows sufficient time (just) to react to the change and brake to the required speed. You don't need to look at the TOD all of the time. That's why there are audible alerts when driving in Protected Manual - to alert the train op to changes in status - approaching speed restriction/station stop, decrease/increase in target speed, target issued etc. Yes it takes a little getting used to compared to the previous system of trackside signalling but the train ops are all used to it now. There will be some guidance on driving in PM probably issued once the line is about to be in full ATO. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2011 8:45:02 GMT
When I asked in another thread about manual driving on the Victoria line in order to keep driving skills up, I was told :
"The sole purpose of LU is to get people from A to B as quickly as possible. Not to please train fanatics. ATO does this faster and more efficiently. Fact. "
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2011 9:01:46 GMT
When I asked in another thread about manual driving on the Victoria line in order to keep driving skills up, I was told : "The sole purpose of LU is to get people from A to B as quickly as possible. Not to please train fanatics. ATO does this faster and more efficiently. Fact. " Which is a silly answer. Wasn't the Sundays driving on the Central introduced after some prangs in Northumberland Park on the Vic, where t/ops didn't strictly know how to handle the trains correctly? ATO also massively increases risk on non-PED platforms when busy. I'm sure it was also mentioned here about CM for busy platforms being an option on the Central. |
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Post by superteacher on May 14, 2011 11:43:30 GMT
When I asked in another thread about manual driving on the Victoria line in order to keep driving skills up, I was told : "The sole purpose of LU is to get people from A to B as quickly as possible. Not to please train fanatics. ATO does this faster and more efficiently. Fact. " Which is a silly answer. Wasn't the Sundays driving on the Central introduced after some prangs in Northumberland Park on the Vic, where t/ops didn't strictly know how to handle the trains correctly? ATO also massively increases risk on non-PED platforms when busy. I'm sure it was also mentioned here about CM for busy platforms being an option on the Central. Victoria line T/OPS regularly drive in manual from the depot all the way to Seven Sisters platform, so I don't see the issue of not being able to handle the trains is an issue. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2011 11:55:58 GMT
Which is a silly answer. Wasn't the Sundays driving on the Central introduced after some prangs in Northumberland Park on the Vic, where t/ops didn't strictly know how to handle the trains correctly? ATO also massively increases risk on non-PED platforms when busy. I'm sure it was also mentioned here about CM for busy platforms being an option on the Central. Victoria line T/OPS regularly drive in manual from the depot all the way to Seven Sisters platform, so I don't see the issue of not being able to handle the trains is an issue. That's basically no distance at all... I'm just recalling that I read. |
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Post by mrfs42 on May 14, 2011 22:02:23 GMT
ATO also massively increases risk on non-PED platforms when busy. I'd remove the word 'massively' - let's keep a sense of proportion here, please. You make it sound like a deliberately-introduced hazard. Remember too that under ATO the proportion of train weight to braking force is different to manual driving (in contradistinction to purely manual stock). |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2011 18:20:39 GMT
ATO also massively increases risk on non-PED platforms when busy. I'd remove the word 'massively' - let's keep a sense of proportion here, please. You make it sound like a deliberately-introduced hazard. Remember too that under ATO the proportion of train weight to braking force is different to manual driving (in contradistinction to purely manual stock). ATO trains generally brake harder and approach stations faster, that's my reasoning behind the matter, meaning less chance of stopping if somebody is on the rails... |
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Post by jardine01 on May 15, 2011 18:34:02 GMT
if the train comes in lets say 30-35mph or so if somebody falls onto the rails there would be no chance of stopping unless the train has really strong brakes. I think there is a red button which stops the train or you pull the Dead mans handle out and brake.
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Post by superteacher on May 15, 2011 20:07:37 GMT
Victoria line T/OPS regularly drive in manual from the depot all the way to Seven Sisters platform, so I don't see the issue of not being able to handle the trains is an issue. That's basically no distance at all... I'm just recalling that I read. It's about a mile from the depot to Seven Sisters, and they probably do it a couple of times a day on average. In any case, all T/OPS have regular practise driving trains into depots at low speed, so I don't get the bit about lack of practice. Depot driving is very different to main line running. You may be recalling what you read, but I think it's a load of tosh!! |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2011 20:10:27 GMT
After seeing today, I can see that distance now and am kinda stuck to eat my own words  |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2011 21:00:00 GMT
I can't see Manual (PM mode) driving on Sundays happening on the JL because the new timetable next year will no doubt require ATO all the time to keep up with it.
PM mode is used into depot and West Hampstead siding at the moment I believe, and also when people are working trackside, so 'practice' will be had every day anyway one way or another.
Driving in PM on the JL should not be that difficult because of the amount of work put into the train operators display & sounds, but it will be naturally slower than operating in ATO.
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Post by jardine01 on May 19, 2011 15:41:49 GMT
What i cant really understand is the Central line is ATO and the drivers seem to drive in Coded Manual more than the Jubilee line does, I wonder if trains on the Jubilee line can be in ATO if the cab door is open? I know on the Central line it is Coded manual if the cab door is open.
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Post by superteacher on May 19, 2011 19:23:58 GMT
What i cant really understand is the Central line is ATO and the drivers seem to drive in Coded Manual more than the Jubilee line does, I wonder if trains on the Jubilee line can be in ATO if the cab door is open? I know on the Central line it is Coded manual if the cab door is open. I think it's a requirement for the door to be closed before ATO can be used to start a train. That's why the 1967 stock was built without side cab doors. |
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Post by rincew1nd on May 19, 2011 19:36:44 GMT
I assume this is to stop the driver falling out and the train continuing?
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