PGtrips
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Mafias
Jan 17, 2011 14:54:52 GMT
Post by PGtrips on Jan 17, 2011 14:54:52 GMT
As you probably know Acton doesn't have a Mafia so any change over of duties that you might want has to be done on the basis of mutual changeovers, but again I emphasise that earlies are in short supply. Mafia? Sounds dodgy, but probably isn't. Please could someone explain what this is and how it works, and the Acton alternative? Thanks, PG
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Deleted
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Jan 17, 2011 16:40:36 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2011 16:40:36 GMT
As far as I know a 'Mafia' in LU slang is a group that exchange duties for the ones they prefer to take as a regular thing.
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Colin
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Jan 18, 2011 3:14:22 GMT
Post by Colin on Jan 18, 2011 3:14:22 GMT
That's pretty much it.
Up until about six or seven years ago, all depots had one big roster and all drivers followed whatever pattern the roster dictated. Now if you preferred all early turns, or all late turns, or all midday starts......maybe every Tuesday as a rest day or every weekend off....you have to go to the "mafia man". The mafia man is a driver who co-ordinates the whims and wishes of the mafia members, taking their duties off them and redistributing the work so that all of the mafia members get what they prefer.
This can work well providing the right number of members are able to put in and get out the right combinations - it is up to the mafia man to ensure he has the right balance and can fulfil his members wishes & whims. That being said, the mafia man will sometimes approach non mafia members as they may be flexible enough to help out (ie, cover the odd week of nights), and equally some non mafia members may ask the mafia man for a favour - perhaps a particular rest day is needed - it's usually the same people and the mafia man gets to know who they are, etc.
There is one serious flaw to the mafia system - you don't necessarily know what duties or rest days you have from one week to the next. Ok, you may know you'll have all earlies, or every Thursday off, but nothing can be guaranteed until a particular week's sheets go up on the wall.
Now around about 7 years ago, Acton Town and Earls Court on the District line took conducted a ballot and voted in favour of what is known as the fixed link system. This means they have several small rosters that are earlies only, middles only or lates only. There can be others (ie, Earls Court in particular also has late earlies and early lates). Point is you can get onto a fixed rota of your choice (though earlies are popular and you'll have to go a waiting list first) and know what you are doing weeks or months in advance.
Depots with fixed links also have a mixed rota, a bit of everything for those who prefer it. All depots also have a 'pool' and the fixed link depots are no exception - pool drivers always follow the general early/late pattern of the mixed link, which may be either 1 week early then 1 week lates, or 2 weeks early then 2 weeks lates. The pool is a small group of drivers over and above the depot establishment to cover annual leave, training & long term sick and are usually the newest drivers at a depot.
I believe some other depots on the combine have either adopted the fixed link system or at least plan to - we've certainly had at least one vote on it at Upminster with the result being that we've stayed with the single whole depot roster & mafia system.
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Now personally speaking, I follow the roster at Upminster, mainly cos it is a "balanced" roster and it also means I know what I'm doing weeks & months in advance.
Now when we say Upminster has a balanced roster, it is 124 weeks and being 2 weeks earlies followed by 2 weeks lates, it can be divided by 4. Because we do two weeks of earlies followed by two weeks of lates, the changes from one to the next aren't too bad and two weeks is a reasonable time to get used to the particular shift type before changing back to the other.
We get pretty much every other weekend off, with the weekend between the earlies & lates usually being a 3 or 4 day long weekend. We can tell, being as the roster is balanced, that the other weekend off generally goes between the change from lates to earlies - this one is usually only two days so it can be a bit of a harsh change but is does mean that the long weekend is maximised [coming off earlies and going back on lates = making the most of the 3 or 4 days off].
Even our annual leave is balanced such that when I'm off, it's always over my 2 week block of earlies.
The balance thing also means that there are some drivers based at Upminster that I never see (aside from nights, training, special one off's like new years eve or if I swap onto an opposite shift) - cos those drivers will always be on their two weeks of lates whilst I'm on my two weeks of earlies and vice versa.
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Deleted
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Mafias
Jan 18, 2011 12:51:58 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2011 12:51:58 GMT
As I recall there was a management attempt 10 or so years ago to enforce the title of "changeover syndicate" rather than mafia. Clearly it didn't stick!
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Deleted
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Jan 18, 2011 13:24:48 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2011 13:24:48 GMT
The mafia has been around for years. It was alive and well at Neasden when I was there in 1971-73 and then there were three rotas at that depot, Metropolitan Long Link, Metropolitan Fluffy Link (don't ask - I think there was a thread on this some time ago!) and the Bakerloo roster. The depot shunters also had their own rosters (north shunters cabin, south shunters cabin and middle shunters cabin). On top of that there was also the Ballast Train roster (Neasden loco), which had nothing to do with what was then the "electric running" and was based in the steam shed.
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PGtrips
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Mafias
Jan 18, 2011 15:20:34 GMT
Post by PGtrips on Jan 18, 2011 15:20:34 GMT
Profuse apologies to Colin for my posting in the wrong place, and many thanks to him for his comprehensive explanation. It's clearly a subject of key importance in achieving a reasonable work life balance whist working in an industry that requires covering just about 24/7. As I recall there was a management attempt 10 or so years ago to enforce the title of "changeover syndicate" rather than mafia. Clearly it didn't stick! I guess it is more of a descriptive title, but much more boring! ..... Metropolitan Fluffy Link (don't ask - I think there was a thread on this some time ago!) I'm asking!! Or at least a signpost to the thread in question. Cheers for all the responses PG
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Oracle
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Jan 18, 2011 16:35:11 GMT
Post by Oracle on Jan 18, 2011 16:35:11 GMT
:)Reganorak posted on 12th November 2009: Neasden Loco was the former "steam" (non passenger workings) and was totally separate (in work and office location) from crews that worked passenger stock. It had its own Loco Inspectors.
The Fluffy Link at Neasden was part of the "electric running" (as it was then known). The reason for the "Fluffy Link" name seems to be obscure. I have seen several suggestions as to why it was called that but nothing ever really definitive - probably lost in the mists of time! The "electric running" had Station Masters.
When I worked at Neasden in the 1971-73 period in the "electric running" (in what is now Klondyke House), there were 89 Met motormen and 87 Met Guards on the "Long Link" and 12 motormen and guards on the "Fluffy Link". There were also the Bakerloo crews - about 50+ if I remember correctly. Now, we had an Underground slang dictionary in UndergrounD mag didn't we? I must look it up and see what it says if anything. 'Klondyke Sidings' if I recall was where the trains were stabled becuase it proved lucrative for those who could search the cars and pick-up lost and discarded items..as in the Klondyke gold rush. Was there a connection between 'fluffy' and 'cushy'?
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Colin
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Jan 19, 2011 2:11:21 GMT
Post by Colin on Jan 19, 2011 2:11:21 GMT
Profuse apologies to Colin for my posting in the wrong place, Not at all - it was a valid question in the thread you originally asked it in, but I could see the potential for a major thread drift that wouldn't have sat well with the thread subject/title, plus I felt those with an interest in the subject may miss the discussion as it would have been hidden away in that not-very-obvious thread. It therefore made sense to pounce on it and create a new thread.
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Ben
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Jan 19, 2011 2:29:11 GMT
Post by Ben on Jan 19, 2011 2:29:11 GMT
So the passenger working rotas consisted of the 'fluffy link' and the 'long link', both presumably being fixed links? Was the fluffy link prefferential to the other? Presumably 'long' means the number of weeks on a certain shift before a change was...lengthy? Its great how some of the odd nicknames and names catch on. The mystery just makes it more compelling.
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Deleted
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Jan 19, 2011 10:33:33 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2011 10:33:33 GMT
When I was there the long link had an 89-week roster for motormen and 78 weeks for guards (Guards got slightly less leave than motormen!) and the fluffy link 12 weeks. The fluffy link crews also did the stock moves to and from Acton which included Bakerloo trains as well. At that time also, train crew never got paid by the company for being off sick, unless they had done 25 years service. These were "Status Men".
Ooops - Edit - seems I have repeated myself from 2009 - sorry.
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Deleted
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Jan 19, 2011 13:30:50 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2011 13:30:50 GMT
As Colin said, at Earls Court we have the fixed 'work/life balance' rotas. Personally I'm on the mixed as I prefer the variety and we do get some extreme shifts where we start 'dead early' or 'dead late'.
Even on these rotas, you have a tendency to spend a lot of time swapping shifts; there are some colleagues who can't make the very earlies or lates because of train times home/to work or those who want particular shifts for a variety of reasons.
A thing that I do moan about is the variation in the shift pattern within a particular week; on (say) Monday, you can start around 07:00, same Tuesday (different duty), then Wednesday you'll start around 10:00, Thursday 11:00 and on Friday, back to 07:00. All these will be different duties. I find that the variation is a nuisance for getting to work, finding train times, judging different lengths of journey times - just because a journey from A to B takes 30 minutes at 10:00 on a Wednesday, doesn't mean to say that the same journey at 08:00 on Monday will take the same time.
When I started back on the buses in the late 90's after a 20 year hiatus, I was working for First and they - I have come to realise - had a great system for duty allocation; On Monday, if you had duty one, you did that duty all week, including the weekend varients; This was a blinding system as you left home at the same time (roughly) every day, you got to know the traffic patterns and delays - or otherwise - you would encounter during the duty and would drive accordingly; If you knew that a school kicked out at half three, you could leave the stand five early and miss the little darlings, bumping them onto your mates bus behind. Strangely, I don't have many friends from my bus driving days....
The above system had it's up's and down's - yes, you could have a rubbish duty all week, but other weeks you could have a great duty - it all balanced out over the length of the Rota.
Always wondered why this isn't the standard across LU, it'd make me happy.
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Colin
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Jan 20, 2011 2:45:59 GMT
Post by Colin on Jan 20, 2011 2:45:59 GMT
No thanks!! I worked under that system at Arriva and absolutely hated it - doing the same shift all week meant I wanted to slit my wrists (not literally!!) by the 5th day of doing the same thing. This job (train driving) is monotonous enough without doing the same thing 5 days on the trot as well.
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PGtrips
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Jan 20, 2011 13:27:48 GMT
Post by PGtrips on Jan 20, 2011 13:27:48 GMT
....you have to go to the "mafia man". The mafia man is a driver who co-ordinates the whims and wishes of the mafia members, taking their duties off them and redistributing the work so that all of the mafia members get what they prefer. So at what point does the Mafia Man square up the changes he has agreed with drivers with management? Are there any times that management may intervene and require a driver to work a certain shift - e.g. for assessment or to maintain road knowledge? What happens if someone who has been swapped then goes off sick? Does the arrangement fall by the wayside, or is it honoured? Presumably, Management wants to be assured that all duties are covered, so what is the process for ensuring this? Also, presumably mafia co-ordinating can be time consuming - does the mafia man have to do this in his own, or the company's time? And ditto same question in respect of those drivers who compile duty books. Thanks PJ
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Colin
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Jan 20, 2011 19:52:20 GMT
Post by Colin on Jan 20, 2011 19:52:20 GMT
So many questions!!..... So at what point does the Mafia Man square up the changes he has agreed with drivers with management? I don't know exactly, but the mafia man will have to have the sheets signed off by the depot. All depots work a little differently but the drivers will only see the sheets and thus what they've been allocated when they're posted on the wall. If a driver isn't happy with what is posted, or they need a last minute change, they will have to find another driver to do a mutual change of duties with. The LU standard is to have a given weeks sheets posted up by the preceding Thursday, which most depots work to, however Upminster always beats that by having them up on the Monday. Are there any times that management may intervene and require a driver to work a certain shift - e.g. for assessment or to maintain road knowledge? In terms of maintaining road knowledge, that is solely the drivers responsibility. Management will ask drivers periodically if they're up to date, but they won't actively seek to ensure it's done via rostering. We do all our refresher training in one week, and that's done on a 9-5 basis for everyone. In fact all training is done on a 9-5 basis during Monday to Friday (mind you I say that, Lillie Bridge training was done somewhat differently but it wasn't done in such a way that the mafia was affected). The mafia man will be informed regarding who's doing such training and so he will just ignore that persons duties for the days/week concerned. What happens if someone who has been swapped then goes off sick? Does the arrangement fall by the wayside, or is it honoured? For the week in which they go sick, everything is honoured as was. Once a new set of sheets are compiled for the next week, they officially revert to their rostered turns. If the mafia man is made aware that the person is resuming back to work before the next set of sheets are compiled, they'll be included as per their mafia arrangements. Presumably, Management wants to be assured that all duties are covered, so what is the process for ensuring this? As per above, the depot has to sign the sheets off so they'll be checked at that stage. I say depot as at some locations it is indeed the management who deal with the allocation of duties, whilst at others it is the depots administration staff. At Upminster it is the latter. Also, presumably mafia co-ordinating can be time consuming - does the mafia man have to do this in his own, or the company's time? ;D ;D ;D ;D I'm smiling now!! The mafia man does it all in his own time, but no mafia man follows the roster or works the same hours as any other driver. The mafia man, as far as possible, will never work weekends and will almost always work the shortest duty the depot has available on a given day. They are of course in the mafia, but they will always benefit the most from it!! And ditto same question in respect of those drivers who compile duty books. It's not always drivers that do it, though it is at most depots. Of course Upminster is always a good example and up until the last change in December, the duty books were actually compiled by one of the duty managers. He has since retired but I'm told there is already someone in place for the forthcoming changes in May - dunno who that is yet though Is it an own time thing? Yes indeed, though they are generally given a couple of days off to be spent compiling the books.
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Chris M
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Mafias
Jan 20, 2011 20:26:13 GMT
Post by Chris M on Jan 20, 2011 20:26:13 GMT
Is it an own time thing? Yes indeed, though they are generally given a couple of days off to be spent compiling the books. By which I presume you mean that although they are compiled in their own time, their rest days/annual leave will be arranged to facilitate this?
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Deleted
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Jan 20, 2011 20:38:59 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2011 20:38:59 GMT
Do LUL staff have the right to refuse to work on Sundays like I believe is the case with the TOCs?
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Colin
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Jan 20, 2011 20:40:19 GMT
Post by Colin on Jan 20, 2011 20:40:19 GMT
By which I presume you mean that although they are compiled in their own time, their rest days/annual leave will be arranged to facilitate this? Not quite as that would be a loss to them, not to mention a little naughty....nicking their annual leave indeed!! They'll be given the number of days agreed with local depot management in addition to their usual rest days/annual leave. Do LUL staff have the right to refuse to work on Sundays like I believe is the case with the TOCs? No - Sundays are part of the normal working week on LU.
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Deleted
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Jan 20, 2011 20:50:12 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2011 20:50:12 GMT
No - Sundays are part of the normal working week on LU. If a Christmas Day service was to be introduced though all workers would have the right to refuse to work that day?
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Colin
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Jan 20, 2011 21:38:44 GMT
Post by Colin on Jan 20, 2011 21:38:44 GMT
That's a whole new thread, though I think we've done that subject to death six times over now [as it comes up every year].....
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Mafias
Jan 20, 2011 22:18:13 GMT
Post by Tomcakes on Jan 20, 2011 22:18:13 GMT
The mafia man, as far as possible, will never work weekends and will almost always work the shortest duty the depot has available on a given day. Surely this is detrimental to them as, through doing the shortest duties, they lose money? Do LUL staff have the right to refuse to work on Sundays like I believe is the case with the TOCs? Not all TOCs - some include Sunday as part of the working week, others staff it on an overtime basis - so drivers can refuse to do it simply by not volunteering for overtime, as has been the case when toys have been projected from prams in recent years. (there may, of course, be a custom & practice argument...).
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Colin
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Jan 20, 2011 22:26:16 GMT
Post by Colin on Jan 20, 2011 22:26:16 GMT
Surely this is detrimental to them as, through doing the shortest duties, they lose money? Not at all - we are salaried. For those who don't know what that means......we are paid the same amount each month as the roster adds up to a fixed number of hours if you work it without deviation. Now generally we all gain - it's very rare you'll work the full 8 hours as a spare for example, plus of course there's the engineering work weekends - but some will gain more than others. Obviously the mafia man will gain most, whilst those who only work particular shifts may actually be working more than they're paid to do (ie, long shifts every day instead of the short ones here and there that keep the weekly hours in check).
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Mafias
Jan 20, 2011 22:30:43 GMT
Post by Tomcakes on Jan 20, 2011 22:30:43 GMT
Sounds very off - surely adjustments ought to be made to the pay, rather than some staff getting paid too little and some too much?
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Colin
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Jan 20, 2011 22:35:42 GMT
Post by Colin on Jan 20, 2011 22:35:42 GMT
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Jan 20, 2011 22:59:22 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2011 22:59:22 GMT
I believe some other depots on the combine have either adopted the fixed link system or at least plan to - we've certainly had at least one vote on it at Upminster with the result being that we've stayed with the single whole depot roster & mafia system. Hope Colin will forgive a minor quibble in your very detailed answers, there has never been a vote on this at Upminster, one driver got up a petition that drivers be given such a vote, which it is said, aquired a lot of signatures. For reasons that were unclear the local union reps (staff were told) scuppered this and no vote ever took place.
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Ben
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Jan 21, 2011 7:14:29 GMT
Post by Ben on Jan 21, 2011 7:14:29 GMT
The chief union rep is the mafia man perhaps? Didn't realise that its entirely on your own head to keep your route knowlege up to date, suppose it makes sense though. Wrt salaried/per hour, didn't the TOPS computers for BR keep track of the pay aswell for employees? I was once told that the flexibility of the system was so great that management rapidly became very unhappy with the amount of info that users could legitimately query. Perhaps BR should have kept two books, rather like the mafia... And full circle
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Deleted
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Jan 21, 2011 7:58:42 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2011 7:58:42 GMT
Obviously the mafia man will gain most, whilst those who only work particular shifts may actually be working more than they're paid to do (ie, long shifts every day instead of the short ones here and there that keep the weekly hours in check). And it works because everyone gets more of what they want than what they don't want. I guess the mafia man is entitled to some benefit for the hassle of running the mafia too - after all if you didn't get anything out of it, why would anyone do it? When I was a driver though, I did think it was conflict of interest when the mafia man was also the depot ASLEF rep.
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Colin
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Jan 21, 2011 13:33:38 GMT
Post by Colin on Jan 21, 2011 13:33:38 GMT
Hope Colin will forgive a minor quibble in your very detailed answers, there has never been a vote on this at Upminster, one driver got up a petition that drivers be given such a vote, which it is said, aquired a lot of signatures. For reasons that were unclear the local union reps (staff were told) scuppered this and no vote ever took place. I stand corrected - it was before I came to Upminster so I was going on what I'd heard third hand...
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SE13
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Jan 21, 2011 14:31:29 GMT
Post by SE13 on Jan 21, 2011 14:31:29 GMT
Do LUL staff have the right to refuse to work on Sundays like I believe is the case with the TOCs? Everyone has the right to take unpaid time off to attend a religious ceremony unless those rules have changed in the last couple of years.
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Jan 21, 2011 14:45:50 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2011 14:45:50 GMT
Surely this is detrimental to them as, through doing the shortest duties, they lose money? Now generally we all gain - it's very rare you'll work the full 8 hours as a spare for example, plus of course there's the engineering work weekends - but some will gain more than others. There speaks an Upminster driver!! Down at the busy end of the line, it's rare if you don't work your full eight hours on a spare turn. At ECT we don't call them spare turns anymore, they're known as (very) Temporary Non Running Turns; the 'Temporary' bit is usually about 40 minutes before you pick up. Don't even start me on the Engineering works; I hear tell that LU is putting a heli-pad on the canteen roof at ECT to get us to work when the engineering works shut ECT.
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Mafias
Jan 21, 2011 15:37:34 GMT
Post by Tomcakes on Jan 21, 2011 15:37:34 GMT
Do LUL staff have the right to refuse to work on Sundays like I believe is the case with the TOCs? Everyone has the right to take unpaid time off to attend a religious ceremony unless those rules have changed in the last couple of years. They have a right to ask for it, not to get it.
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