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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2010 23:46:04 GMT
Hello all; have been away in Russia for a couple of weeks (all Metro journeys faultless of course), so no moans recently about the Jubilee Line here from me. We did discuss on the plane returning today how it was good to be arriving on Friday rather than into the weekend Underground closures. But we did also discuss what chaos might await our journey home, as the last few we have done have all been completely messed up.
Well, didn't have to wait for long. Came down onto Heathrow Terminal 5 station at about 1300, to find gates closed and a large confused crowd, also a train in the platform with people sat in it. Quite clueless announcement about what was going on, which comprised "we have to back this train into the siding and then bring a train stuck in the tunnel back into the platform".
Crowd asked what to do, and were told "Go to Heathrow Express to Paddington". Now the Heathrow Express, single, for the three of us, comes to £54, to get you to nowhere particularly convenient (sorry if you live in W2 but it's not really Central London).
On querying this we were told that by TfL staff that there would be "no Underground trains for a huge long time", and the Heathrow Express to Paddington was the "only alternative".
Now this is a complete nonsense. If there is a problem right there at Terminal 5, trains are obviously still coming round the Terminal 4 loop (as they were), and the Heathrow Express is free to the main Heathrow station. This was what we did, as ever advising those around us to do the same. It wasted about 45 minutes to do so, mainly because the convoluted route from the Underground to the Express platforms at Terminal 5, which are right next to each other through a piece of glass, is completely unsignposted. Pity the poor arriving foreigner who does not have good English.
Why can the appropriate alternatives not be worked out beforehand for various contingencies and the staff trained accordingly? Isn't that sort of advice what the staff are there for in the first place? If the staff cannot give sensible alternative advice then what is the point of having them in place? Where does this silly idea come from that the only journeys being made from Heathrow are those for which the Heathrow Express forms an effective alternative? Who are TfL to tell me to go and waste £54 of my money?
It all seemed to be still disorganised by the time we got to Acton Town, huge crowds heading for Heathrow on the platform there, so was obviously taking ages to sort out.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Oct 30, 2010 2:01:17 GMT
TfL staff at terminal 5? I thought we only had a single person there (station supervisor grade), and that terminal 5 is in fact staffed by BAA.......who funnily enough run the Heathrow Express...
Heathrow connect isn't too slow, and only costs £23.70 for three people, so there's another alternative - granted not a particularly ideal alternative either, but it's another option none the less.
I dunno what happened as it was a rest day for me, but there must have been a valid reason for the disruption....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2010 5:04:43 GMT
T fL staff at terminal 5? I thought we only had a single person there (station supervisor grade), and that terminal 5 is in fact staffed by BAA.......who funnily enough run the Heathrow Express... Heathrow connect isn't too slow, and only costs £23.70 for three people, so there's another alternative - granted not a particularly ideal alternative either, but it's another option none the less. I dunno what happened as it was a rest day for me, but there must have been a valid reason for the disruption.... Colin is right, the only Tfl member of staff there is the supervisor who would have been dealing with the wrong direction move that Diana referred to in her post. Any travel advice would be given by BAA staff, so it's no surprise that they would direct you to the Heathrow Express without mentioning the free shuttle connection. The service was disrupted because of a points failure where T5 trains re-enter the T4 loop and make there way into T123 eastbound platform. All T5 trains were terminating at T123. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2010 6:55:18 GMT
Certainly last week when there was a T5 problem, LU staff on the platforms at T12&3 were advising HEx to T5, although as I was leaving Heathrow our Line Information person started suggesting we advise customers to use buses from Hatton Cross (previously he'd not been giving any alternative route suggestions). Whether this is indeed quicker than transferring to and waiting for HEx is not something I know, although to be fair T12&3 platforms were being mobbed with each incoming train (there's still one set of escalators out for maintenance), so it could have been crowd dispersal related.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2010 9:26:14 GMT
I wasn't really commenting on the actual mechanical nature of the fault, because I didn't have any knowledge of what was happening there, but more on the way it was handled with the passengers who were arriving in considerable numbers and being prevented from entering. It is correct that when we arrived at the Piccadilly Line platforms at Terminals 123 people were being instructed to go to Heathrow Express if heading for Terminal 5; I was of course describing those trying to come in the other direction, who were given no indication that things were operating everywhere else on the line.
The person on the other side of the barrier certainly looked like they were in TfL uniform, and had a radio with them, with what sounded like TfL operating messages from the control room or wherever coming out of it. In fact I learned more about what was going on from snatches from that radio than from the instructions being given to us.
What would be of greater value would be to understand what the contingency plan is for passenger information if the line (as here) is only out of service for the Terminal 5 station; surely this must be worked out in a contingency procedure and the staff at Terminal 5 issued with these instructions.
You have to be a train buff of substantial proportions, way beyond the typical air traveller using the station, to understand that the Heathrow Connect, which does not serve Terminal 5, can provide a much cheaper service into London, but is only reachable by taking the expensive Express as far as Terminals 123, which is free, and then changing to another train going to the same destination.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2010 9:34:36 GMT
You have to be a train buff of substantial proportions, way beyond the typical air traveller using the station, to understand that the Heathrow Connect, which does not serve Terminal 5, can provide a much cheaper service into London, but is only reachable by taking the expensive Express as far as Terminals 123, which is free, and then changing to another train going to the same destination. This is nothing new. I can tell you straight out that the most obvious and most simple route from any Airport into and City is invariably the most expensive. The real Best Route is usually one with a few small changes. My example would be Hong Kong, a land where the MTR is about as perfect as any in Russia but much more modern. MTR makes a profit that makes the Whole World groan. Forget funding. MTR makes a PROFIT. Taking the direct Airport Express is the most obvious choice; it glares at you in the face. But it costs HKD 100 to Hong Kong OTOH, if you were to take a little walk, you can catch a bus to the nearby township of Tung Chung. The bus is HKD 3.5. From Tung Chung, you can take the MTR local line for about HKD 25 to Hong Kong. Total saving of over 70%. Which I use for eating a meal in Tung Chung above the bus interchange...See? London is not unique in this respect. But you are quite right to say that to pull off this trickery, one has to be highly competent. As countless people on this Forum will tell you, many travellers are anything but. |
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Post by v52gc on Oct 30, 2010 10:16:08 GMT
As previously mentioned visible staff at T5 LU station are HEX (heathrow express) staff, all be it only working on the Pic platforms and gateline. They have their own control room and their own radio system. The LU staff present are not allowed to deal with the gateline and were probably busy with the operational issues at hand if there was more then the one there.
This is my own point of view now but BAA charge a lot for the HEX to take you to Paddington which is not always useful for all or a quicker way to reach your final destination when compared to the Underground. There is a good reason the T5 ticket office and staff and platform staff are BAA HEX employees: to generate more HEX revenue. Also you have to think that you can't deal with each customer individually so for them it's easier to just everybody onto a HEX train while (not necessarily on purpose) omitting the detail to get off at heathrow central for the Pic.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2010 10:37:32 GMT
Well then, I should apologise to those of you who are TfL staff for making out it was one of your number, when it wasn't. Although I am sure you can understand how one becomes confused with this. And if you are buying the transport from TfL, the actual employer of the staff in question becomes a bit secondary.
I would however say that TfL should have this one out most forcefully with Heathrow Express if these staff, provided (exclusively it seems) to give out passenger assistance to Underground passengers, are giving out misleading information that takes commercial advantage of any Underground issues, and sends their passengers on inappropriate and moneywasting Wild Goose Chases.
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Post by londonstuff on Oct 30, 2010 11:25:39 GMT
Diana - I've had poor (and aggressive) experiences with the T5 staff before as well - they're not the brightest or best selected bunch. I also agree with you that the average travelling public may well think that this lot were TfL staff. If this bunch of cowboys are tarnishing TfL's 'brand' so to speak, it may well be worth them doing something about it.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 30, 2010 11:49:52 GMT
From other discussions around the place, I get the impression that the only real leverage over T5 that TfL has would be to withdraw the Piccadilly Line Services.
Not only would this cost TfL massive amounts of money (lost revenue, timetable and roster changes, map changes, bad publicity, etc, etc) but would not guarantee the outcome they (TfL) want.
After all as BAA get the money from HEx, there would be areal potential for their response to TfL saying "I'm taking my ball and going home" to be "OK, we'll just play with my more expensive one instead. And while we're at it, let's have a little talk about the other terminals as well..."
I hope I'm wrong in this, as it doesn't bode well for TfL or it's reputation if I'm not (and my experience of T5 staff is also that they're not the world's most friendly or helpful bunch).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2010 12:08:36 GMT
From other discussions around the place, I get the impression that the only real leverage over T5 that TfL has would be to withdraw the Piccadilly Line Services. Not only would this cost TfL massive amounts of money (lost revenue, timetable and roster changes, map changes, bad publicity, etc, etc) but would not guarantee the outcome they (TfL) want. After all as BAA get the money from HEx, there would be areal potential for their response to TfL saying "I'm taking my ball and going home" to be "OK, we'll just play with my more expensive one instead. And while we're at it, let's have a little talk about the other terminals as well..." I hope I'm wrong in this, as it doesn't bode well for TfL or it's reputation if I'm not (and my experience of T5 staff is also that they're not the world's most friendly or helpful bunch). I think that behind the scenes, they could write up a new TT, plan out everything, while dangling the threat. If BAA refuse, TfL can go BOOM! and withdraw the T5 service. |
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Post by Chris M on Oct 30, 2010 12:21:39 GMT
But that wouldn't alter the fact that withdrawing the T5 service may harm TfL more than it inconveniences BAA.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2010 12:24:01 GMT
But that wouldn't alter the fact that withdrawing the T5 service may harm TfL more than it inconveniences BAA. Look into a minimum change. Is it possible to divert T5 trains to somewhere? Like, where nothing major will happen. The idea is to allow TfL to "strike" on BAA.  Time for a better idea... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2010 12:44:49 GMT
Hmm ... if I had an Underground ticket, and was told by someone who appeared to be LU staff to use HEX due to no LU trains, I would assume my ticket to be valid on HEX - especially if they were actually HEX staff.
(If you look carefully, can you tell whose staff they are?)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2010 13:30:56 GMT
Hmm ... if I had an Underground ticket, and was told by someone who appeared to be LU staff to use HEX due to no LU trains, I would assume my ticket to be valid on HEX - especially if they were actually HEX staff. (If you look carefully, can you tell whose staff they are?) Possibly the uniform. I doubt BAA staff would wear LUL roundels on their uniforms... I may be wrong tho'... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2010 16:35:19 GMT
In fact the LU Supervisor had to deal with three "wrong direction moves". In turn, (1) from the EB platform at T5 back into the siding to clear the EB platform, (2) from the 'X' signal between T5 and T123 and finally (3) from the home signal at Picc Ex Junction.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2010 17:01:20 GMT
The BAA staff there have BAA orange hi viz jackets with the X logo on.
The extension was built as a PFI if I recall, with funding from BAA too.
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