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Post by jammers on Jul 25, 2010 20:26:53 GMT
When the 92TS entered service and for a few years after the doors were all controlled by the passengers. I remember at Epping a few times when the train was waiting to depart you could open the doors and close them once you got in if it was cold.
Of course that has changed now where the doors are opened by the driver and at terminus stops they are left open for ages - in Winter this makes no sense.
So why do LU do this these days? It makes sense in central London but once you get above ground shouldn't it be left to the individual door buttons in each carriage?
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Post by jamesb on Jul 25, 2010 20:33:09 GMT
I think that LU have a uniform policy across all the lines that the doors are controlled by the driver.
Maybe this is to avoid confusing customers who might stand there for a while and not push the button.
I think the trains have strict dwell times at stations, and where trains run close together a few seconds delay at each station adds up.
Also, the buttons aren't used much and might not all still work?
I like pressing buttons and personally would like them to be used, in the outdoor stations in the winter...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2010 20:40:09 GMT
I remember at Epping a few times when the train was waiting to depart you could open the doors and close them once you got in if it was cold. Of course that has changed now where the doors are opened by the driver and at terminus stops they are left open for ages - in Winter this makes no sense. I read somewhere that some drivers (I don't remember wether it was on the Central or District though) set the POGO switch (Passenger Open/Guard Open - the one that (de)activates the passenger door controls) to Passenger Open in the outer ends of the line in the winter time to maintain the heat in the cars. You also have the Selective Door Closing (or is it opening?), that leaves one door leaf open on each carriage with all the others closed. Slows down boarding though. |
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Post by 21146 on Jul 25, 2010 21:12:51 GMT
I remember at Epping a few times when the train was waiting to depart you could open the doors and close them once you got in if it was cold. Of course that has changed now where the doors are opened by the driver and at terminus stops they are left open for ages - in Winter this makes no sense. I read somewhere that some drivers (I don't remember wether it was on the Central or District though) set the POGO switch (Passenger Open/Guard Open - the one that (de)activates the passenger door controls) to Passenger Open in the outer ends of the line in the winter time to maintain the heat in the cars. You also have the Selective Door Closing (or is it opening?), that leaves one door leaf open on each carriage with all the others closed. Slows down boarding though. On D Stock the POGO switch is under a seat in the saloon and drivers do not have access to the relevant Yale-type key. |
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Post by 100andthirty on Jul 25, 2010 21:15:46 GMT
And there are no door buttons on D stock any more!
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Post by Deep Level on Jul 26, 2010 4:26:49 GMT
I feel there should be a button to only activate the doors rather than open them. Although I don't feel it should be used anywhere else but at Terminus Stations.
I remember in my younger days when I used to constantly travel on the DLR for the fun of it and of course doors on the DLR only unlock rather than open. At Terminus Stations in the Winter when people weren't boarding, the PSA's used to press the Button to close all the doors and then immediately press the button to open them again. This would close all the doors to keep in heat but when passengers do arrive, the passengers can open them.
I feel this is the only time on LU lines when a system like that should be used but for that reason I am for the idea.
Also what about the current Class 357 door system? Where the doors automatically close after a certain period of time but do not lock. Alternatively, how about fitting censors and having the doors close after a certain period of time of inactivity but not lock?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2010 10:33:46 GMT
I started working 92 stock in 2003 and I was instructed to set the rotary switch in the cab to “Operator Open” at all times. I think the problem was that during the peak the Central Line gets so crowded that people were leaning against the “Closed” button and shutting the doors while people were still getting on and off.
Strangely a lot of train maintainers set the switch to “Passenger Open” when they check the trains at night and occasionally we miss this. When this does happen almost all passengers stand and wait for the doors to open as they’ve got so used to not pushing the buttons. And yet they still push the buttons after we’ve closed the doors elsewhere.
If you wish to sponsor a costly re-education program I’m sure LUL would be happy to listen to your proposal but even then I’m not sure 90% of our wonderful passengers would absorb anything this complicated. Look at how much information they absorb when we announce engineering works………
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2010 10:36:24 GMT
Ps RE. alterations to current stock, expemsive, money's tight, no hope in hell of that happening.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2010 10:39:06 GMT
Re. Selective door opening, not on 92s. Once again, money, money, money....
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Post by auxsetreq on Jul 26, 2010 10:52:59 GMT
Most of em, especially on the doors themselves, don't work anymore. I was told that the reason we went over to operator open was for a uniform way the doors operated on the combine as a whole. When we were in passenger open, we had so many problems with punters getting trapped on board 'cos the things didn't work! If ever a train is in pass open, use the buttons on the side pillars, most of those still seem to work..........
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Post by jammers on Jul 26, 2010 18:15:05 GMT
Thanks for the reply.
So lousy maintenance and cost now makes it impossible. What a shame
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2010 19:30:08 GMT
Before the instruction came to use operator only there were a heck of a lot of failures of the passenger door buttons on 92 stock. Not to mention the entertaining ability for kids to shut their friends in the doors etc.
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Post by 21146 on Jul 26, 2010 19:31:17 GMT
The story went around that the unique 92TS "close" buttons could be used maliciously to shut the doors on people, or even create a diversion for pickpockets. The use of "open" buttons only on other stock, plus a third of option of full T/Op control on older trains, was all deemed to be confusing and presumably beyond the comprehension of LU passengers (but OK on NR!). So we now have a standardised form of operation - until the S Stock enter service...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2010 19:33:11 GMT
The story went around that the unique 92TS "close" buttons could be used maliciously to shut the doors on people, True - I remember a group of kids messing around on my train, one of them pressed the close button and shut the doors on another one, when I went to investigate he started screaming at me that I shut him in the doors. Nice.......... |
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Post by plasmid on Jul 26, 2010 20:29:56 GMT
Thanks for the reply. So lousy maintenance and cost now makes it impossible. What a shame Erm...they just spent 150 million pounds on new Siemens bogies for the 92ts. How much money do you want them to spend on a tired 18 year old stock. Name me an 18 year old car which has had less issues... |
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Post by Chris M on Jul 26, 2010 22:13:54 GMT
Alternatively, how about fitting censors and having the doors close after a certain period of time of inactivity but not lock? This is exactly what has been fitted to the S stock. I guess if it is deemed a success there then it will be propagated to other lines as they get their new stock. Well, with the possible exception of the Victoria Line and Waterloo and City lines, as these are entirely underground chilly termini are less of a problem. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jul 26, 2010 22:20:55 GMT
You also have the Selective Door Closing (or is it opening?), that leaves one door leaf open on each carriage with all the others closed. Slows down boarding though. When the 1973 stock was young, I used to travel frequently on them late at night. As they waited for connections at Hammersmith, the drivers used this facility to keep the heat in but allow people arriving on the platform to still get on. And there was always someone who, seeing one leaf of the pair apparently stuck open, would try and force it shut. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2010 22:38:49 GMT
It will be interesting to see how passenger open works on the S stock. I understand it will only be used in open sections. Apart from keeping in heat during cold weather, it should also keep cool air conditioned air during hot weather, which is not an issue on other stocks.
Hopefully people are used to using open and close buttons on mainline trains now, they seem to be pretty universal on London suburban trains. Having said that, it is amazing how many people get on in freezing cold weather and fail to close the door behind them. That rarely happened with the old slam door stock!
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Post by jammers on Jul 28, 2010 2:03:35 GMT
Thanks for the reply. So lousy maintenance and cost now makes it impossible. What a shame Erm...they just spent 150 million pounds on new Siemens bogies for the 92ts. How much money do you want them to spend on a tired 18 year old stock. Name me an 18 year old car which has had less issues... Door buttons that broke so quickly is clearly a design issue. The 92TS is only about half way through it's life expectancy. |
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Post by plasmid on Jul 31, 2010 17:32:32 GMT
Door buttons that broke so quickly is clearly a design issue. The 92TS is only about half way through it's life expectancy. Erm...not being funny but the 92ts is a design issue.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2010 18:20:27 GMT
I remember in 1998 that on the District line the doors were all opened by the driver but the Central line still had passenger operated doors so it seems that not all lines changed policy at the same time. In 1999 I went on the Jubilee line and all the doors were opened by the driver at Stratford so even though the 96 stock had passenger operated buttons, I'm not sure if these were ever in use.
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Post by t697 on Jul 31, 2010 19:30:26 GMT
I remember in 1998 that on the District line the doors were all opened by the driver but the Central line still hd passenger operated doors so it seems that not all lines changed policy at the same time. In 1999 I went on the Jubilee line and all the doors were opened by the driver at Stratford so even though the 96 stock had passenger operated buttons, I'm not sure if these were ever in use. The 96TS has (had?) the feature that with Passenger Open selected at the cab, the doors worked Passenger Open at 'normal' stations but Operator Open at Platform Edge Door stations, switchover being automatic from ATO data from the PAC loop. I recall testing the feature and I'm pretty sure seeing it in use briefly (maybe unofficially) on passenger service trains. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2010 11:51:56 GMT
If you wish to sponsor a costly re-education program I’m sure LUL would be happy to listen to your proposal but even then I’m not sure 90% of our wonderful passengers would absorb anything this complicated. Look at how much information they absorb when we announce engineering works……… Maybe your "wonderful passengers" have become immune from taking in any information about the underground as a result of the constant, patronising "ladies and gentlemen" announcements being blairng out from station PA systems, especially at Bond Street where there is an announcement being made more often than there is not. Perhaps it's not occured to you that a high proportion of your "wonderful passengers" are tourists and know little about the quirks of the system. Although it is reassuring you refer to us as passengers rather than customers, I'll give you that. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2010 0:41:29 GMT
The pointless PAs were a wonderful invention of the suits up at 55; what is a “good service” anyway? How many times have I been held on a platform, made a PA to inform my passengers of the problem and then heard the station happily announcing that everything is fine after we’ve been there ten minutes. My personal favourite is Wanstead EB which rarely has more than a dozen people waiting and as the train pulls in there is an automated PA instructing them to use the whole length of the platform.
We all get the “tourist” speech when we first start training on the Tube, how the vast majority of passengers (not customers, another piece of 55 speak) use the Tube less than six times a year or whatever it is, which only reinforces the argument for driver-operated doors rather than passenger-operated. If you don’t use the Tube that often how are you supposed to know that you have to open the doors yourself?
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Post by superteacher on Aug 9, 2010 19:52:24 GMT
Whatever happened to common sense? Train pulls in platform, door does not open, Oh, I can see a door button, perhaps I'll press it and see what happens . . . Even if they get left behind, they'll soon work it out. Mamby pambly nanny state - substitute for common sense.
Perhaps we'd better taken away door control on London Overground and National Rail.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2010 20:46:26 GMT
Most tourists go pressing the buttons anyway. And if they don't open and the button lights up surely that's enough of a hint.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2010 22:14:23 GMT
Superteacher – Not sure if I mentioned this earlier but some of the train maintainers set the rotary switch to “passenger open” when they service the trains at night in Loughton sidings. Occasionally I have neglected to switch back to “operator open” when changing ends at Epping so I can tell you exactly what happens when I pull into Theydon Bois and the doors don’t open. At 05:30 I doubt these people are tourists, these are regular commuters and they all stand there waiting for the doors to open. If they get left behind that’s just going to give them something else to bitch about, take out on some poor undeserving member of station staff, write to the Standard, etc, so we are in a lose/lose situation.
Common sense, on the Tube, don't make me laugh......
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Post by superteacher on Aug 9, 2010 22:40:04 GMT
Superteacher – Not sure if I mentioned this earlier but some of the train maintainers set the rotary switch to “passenger open” when they service the trains at night in Loughton sidings. Occasionally I have neglected to switch back to “operator open” when changing ends at Epping so I can tell you exactly what happens when I pull into Theydon Bois and the doors don’t open. At 05:30 I doubt these people are tourists, these are regular commuters and they all stand there waiting for the doors to open. If they get left behind that’s just going to give them something else to bitch about, take out on some poor undeserving member of station staff, write to the Standard, etc, so we are in a lose/lose situation. Common sense, on the Tube, don't make me laugh...... How many of the 1992 stock door buttons still actually work, I wonder? |
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Post by Chris M on Aug 10, 2010 7:40:22 GMT
Commuters are creatures of habit, so it's not surprising that they don't immediately do something they've been conditioned not to have to do over the years.
Now, were the reintroduction of passenger operated doors was a regular thing (i.e. passengers encountered it every trip, not just once in a blue moon if that), accompanied by publicity at the station and on the train (eye-level notices on the doors) and t/op announcements (passengers wishing to alight here are reminded to press the buttons adjacent to the doors in order to open them) then it would stand a greater chance of success. All it requires is one competent person per set of doors (or in some cases per every other set of doors). Give it a week or so and they'd soon learn.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2010 10:07:46 GMT
This thread seems to be going round in circles. The “passenger open” buttons were withdrawn because they kept failing so unless LUL pays for upgrades this whole debate is pointless. We’re about to suffer a huge budget cut so only essential work will be forthcoming in the next four years or so.
End of, carry on freezing.
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