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Post by nickf on Jul 19, 2010 15:16:21 GMT
I saw a 'MythBusters' TV show a little while back where they proved - to their own satisfaction, if not mine - that it is impossible to get electrocuted by....how shall I put it?....passing water on the third (or fourth) rail. Their reason was that the stream turns into separate droplets and therefore there is no circuit. Very shortly afterwards I read a news item about a chap who was killed doing this very thing from the platform at, I think it was Vauxhall or Queenstown Road. Killed, that is, by electricity, not by a passing train!
Trusting neither journalists nor TV presenters I don't know what to believe: the newspaper or the TV show. Can anyone give a definitive answer about the likely consequences of this foolhardy and rude act?
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Jul 19, 2010 15:31:49 GMT
DON'T DO IT!! Perhaps of relevance....a few years ago there was a fuss about the EU setting standards for electric fences (for keeping animals)...the nature of the fuss isn't relevant,but one statistic caught my eye:apparently 3 people were killed by electric fences in the whole of Europe the preceding year but EVERY ONE of them died as a result of "Passing water against a live fence whilst in a state of intoxication"!! How much more volts/amps/whatever is there in a live rail?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 19, 2010 17:41:07 GMT
Well from a bit of research it seems that an electric fence for horses [1] uses 2000-6000 volts at about 100 milliamps in pulses of between 1/300th of a second and 1 second. Electric rails are only live at a few hundred volts (210-750 depending on the rail in question), and when there are no trains in the section are at or around 0 amps. This changes dramatically when a train is in the section though, as trains draw up to 4000 amps when accelerating. It's amps (current) that kill you, not volts (potential). The info about third rails was taken from this nearly 5-year old thread which does a good job of explaining the difference between volts and amps and how electric trains work in this regard.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2010 22:10:32 GMT
Whilst on the subject if you get an electric shock from a DC source you can will most likely be paralyzed and unable to move....
With AC you will get thrown due to the polarity changes - however neither is a nice experience!
This fact together with the high current on the Underground is the reason there are unfortunately fatalities when humans of animals get between a live rail and earth.
Xerces Fobe
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Post by andypurk on Jul 20, 2010 8:23:32 GMT
Well from a bit of research it seems that an electric fence for horses [1] uses 2000-6000 volts at about 100 milliamps in pulses of between 1/300th of a second and 1 second. Electric rails are only live at a few hundred volts (210-750 depending on the rail in question), and when there are no trains in the section are at or around 0 amps. This changes dramatically when a train is in the section though, as trains draw up to 4000 amps when accelerating. It's amps (current) that kill you, not volts (potential). The info about third rails was taken from this nearly 5-year old thread which does a good job of explaining the difference between volts and amps and how electric trains work in this regard. With respect, the fact that there is 0A passing when there is no train is irrelevant. If you use your body to complete a circuit, then there will be a current, the size of which is governed by the electrical resistance that the body provides. Both the current and the voltage are important in determining whether you get killed, as it is the power delivered that does the damage.
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 20, 2010 10:31:17 GMT
Whilst on the subject if you get an electric shock from a DC source you can will most likely be paralyzed and unable to move.... With AC you will get thrown due to the polarity changes - however neither is a nice experience! This fact together with the high current on the Underground is the reason there are unfortunately fatalities when humans of animals get between a live rail and earth. Xerces Fobe This is questionable because a DC 'belt' throws though I would agree that it contracts a muscle and it is all a question of which muscle and in what position. You'd have to be firmly gripping rather than simply touching or in contact and unable to use the required muscle to move away! On the other hand gripping an ac source would contract and relax muscle at the frequency of the current making it impossible to let go in the very short relaxation time. So take nothing for granted except that all electricity is dangerous regardless of current and voltage, I speak from experience having been zapped by autoelectrics, domestic electrics, signal supplies, both AC and DC over the years. One never gets used to it but in the good old days of open contacts getting juiced by 100v ac was almost guaranteed on a nightly basis when testing signalling! Many tunnel smoulderings (these days called fires) were the result of rubbish building up between the pozzi and the continuous (earthy) running rail and usually started by a trapped drinks can. We'd jump out the front of a train with our trusty 2lb hammer and knock the can out, it's amazing how long a can takes to burn through though even though it is causing a full short to earth. In the absence of fire fighting kit the unwritten rule was for a lineman to relieve himself over a smouldering in the good old days as the quickest way to deal with it!
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Post by nickf on Jul 20, 2010 13:25:08 GMT
So....is the consensus of opinion in agreement with common sense: that peeing on the traction current rail WILL electrocute you? And can we dismiss the Myth Busters (stream turns into separate droplets therefore no continuous circuit) as dangerous nonsense?
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Post by Dmitri on Jul 20, 2010 13:45:07 GMT
If you use your body to complete a circuit, then there will be a current, the size of which is governed by the electrical resistance that the body provides ...which is an interesting thing indeed . Whilst body resistance may seem high (up to 100 kOhm) when metered with a 4.5-9 V powered multimeter, the only part of a human body possessing significant resistance is a very thin outer skin layer. Its breakdown voltage varies from person to person, but it surely is not higher than 100 V, and when a breakdown voltage is reached, body resistance drops significantly. Currents over 300 mA DC and 100 mA AC (50 Hz) are considered to be fatal, although your mileage may vary ;D.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 20, 2010 13:48:19 GMT
Certainly the consensus of opinion is that peeing on a traction current rail is never a good idea. There are too many variables to say with confidence that you will or wont be electrocuted - e.g. the volume and velocity of your urine (lower volume and/or lower velocity is more likely to turn to separate droplets). The salinity of a liquid affects its conductivity (pure H2O being a very significantly less good conductor than ordinary water), and it wouldn't surprise me if the amount of moisture in the atmosphere also affected things as well (although probably not that significantly in this context).
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Jul 20, 2010 18:08:44 GMT
Mod hat
I would recommend from both a personal point of view and that of the board, that attempting to connect with juice rails is not a good idea, and I certainly don't think taking a pee on the running lines is clever.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 20, 2010 18:24:57 GMT
Indeed.
It's not clever in the slightest and of course no LU staff, or forum staff, would condone such activity.
Whilst the technicalities are no doubt interesting, we cannot encourage further discussion on such a mindless act; as such this thread is now locked.
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