Piccadilly Line New Stock

The line is supposed to go ATO, hence why the number of trains is set to rise....

Well this is a TubeLines line and looking at the way the other two lines have gone with Moving Block ATO I wouldn't be surprised if Alstom were the preferred supplier as there trains would be easier to configure.

Mind you though now that TFL is in charge they might just call up Bombardier and have them do the signalling and provide the trains as they know full well they are likely to succeed in completing the project on budget and on time. From the looks of things they have their hands full at the moment...

Unless Bombardier would like to keep the 73ts trains they refurbished and adapt them for ATO...now that would be good!

If the Pick is going to be ATO, I wonder how it will share tracks with the Met on the Uxbridge branch?

Plenty of manufacturers (Alstom, Bombardier, Mitsubishi, Kinki Sharyo, and even Metro Cammell (RIP), etc) have built trains which contain ATO boxes for Seltrac. I cannot see any reason why the use of Seltrac will limit selection to a particular manufacturer.

I'm sure they do, let's just make things as easy as possible for Tube Lines, we don't want another project going past the deadline...

Whats got to be remembered is that before the service reductions of the 70s and 80s all lines opperated more trains, and mostly at a higher frequency aswell. It follows that any line which has stock from that period will (now) have less trains than ideal, the last order being placed at a time when there was less demand. So for the pic, forget the total number of 73ts trains ordered (87½). The order before that was for 1959 tube stock. That was for 76 trains, which were intended to (and did) run with 3 trains of 1956ts and 15 trains of 1938ts (plus a three car 62ts unit for the aldwych shuttle).

So thats a total of 94½ units (or as good as). Which means that the pic is seen as requiring in the future 2½ less trains than 50 years ago, despite passenger numbers being high now.

Of course things which complicate the issue are that the Pic no longer runs peak hours only to Uxbridge (extra trains required), Aldwych isn't on the map any longer (1 less train required), the extensions to Ts 4+5 (extra trains required), and the fact a unified fleet wont need as many spares (less trains required).

Another point worth considering is that the proposed 1952 tube stock order was for 100x7car trains for the Pic.

All in all, I'd say its (92trains) actually a highly unambitious proposition. Unless of course its only for a Heathrow - Cockfosters service. In which case the Holy Grail of 40tph might well be achievable!

How would past schemes have achieved 40tph then?

Also wasn't there talk of a fourth platform at Cockfosters and something at Oakwood aswell? Presumably this has bitten the dust!

Which past schemes? As far as I'm aware the Piccadilly has never operated more than 30tph.

Other lines have operated up to around 40tph, but this is with multiple reversing points, and higher capacity termini.

Its from Brian Hardys 'Underground Train File' for the tube stock that I got the info, it says 40tph in the central section were envisaged for the Pic with the 1952ts. Even minus Moorgate protection and the requirement to manualy check before entering non-passenger areas 40 seems a high number. Presumably there were infrastructure works planned aswell?

Sorry I should have been more clear before about that

Whats the future frequency envisaged as, out of interest.. 30ish?

When I started in LT rolling stock engineering in the 70s we were told that the intensively used areas in central London were, or would be, signalled for 90 seconds headways (40tph with no recovery margin) so as to achieve 2 minutes (30tph) in the timetable. Central line ATC was supposed to deliver 33tph and the (cancelled) 1990s Jubilee scheme 36tph.
As well as things like Moorgate protection, the use of much shorter trains (3 or 4 cars) probably made higher frequencies possible back in the 1920s. The rear of the train has left the station that much sooner! Short trains don't carry so many passengers of course so aren't the answer to total capacity.

Even the '92 stock feels older than the '73 stock!

We mustn't foget that both the Bakerloo and Picc Rolling Stock Replacement Programs were largely (perhaps wholly?) drawn up under PPP, by 2 seperate companies - each with their own timescale and resources todo the necessary works. Piccadilly replacement is not scheduled before the Bakerloo because the 73TS is in worse nick than the 72s, but rather because Tubelines had a smaller Program of works to complete than Metronet, and could therefore dedicate the necessary resources earlier.

Under the current climate, I wouldn't bank on any new stock for the Picc, in which case the Isle of Wight will be disappointed too!

As far as I know the IoW aren't (weren't?) interested in 1967/72 Stocks. This possible use of this stock on the IoW has been kicked about for many years, especially when so much 1972 MkI was in store. So I doubt 1967/72 - but never say never ....