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Post by The Tram Man on Jun 16, 2010 10:46:10 GMT
I just heard the rumor that two of the cars involved in the Moorgate crash are bricked up in the southbound tunnel. On the site i read it, the author says that there is a concrete plug, that you can climb over, and that there is no evidence of anything buried underneath. www.abandonedstations.org.uk/Drayton_Park_station.htmlDoes anyone know anything else? Is there the slightest bit of truth in the story? If there is'nt, why would the plug be there? Why where the current carrying rails removed? |
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Jun 16, 2010 11:06:37 GMT
I wouldn't have thought any cars are bricked in, the driver wasn't found for five days, and they had to remove the wreckage to get to him.
The cars piled on top of each other because of the diameter of the tunnel, so it wouldn't have been safe to get victims out without moving the cars on the top first.
Tubeprune knows a fair amount about it, so it might be worth dropping him a PM and pointing him in this thread direction.
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Post by The Tram Man on Jun 16, 2010 11:08:41 GMT
Ok. Well, If they had to remove the wreckage, then it does'nt make any since. But still, why brick up the tunnel?
And thanks for the tip. Will do.
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Jun 16, 2010 11:15:03 GMT
The tunnel didn't actually go anywhere, it was just an over-run. Moorgate was a terminus, but again I'll have to pass it over to someone else to confirm why the tunnel had SSL dimensions and not tube dimensions.
I remember at the time (when they were still speculating what had happened) that the original direction they were looking into was the fact that the tunnel was dark, and should have had a brick wall painted white instead.
It's a bit vague I'm sorry to say, I was only about 7 at the time, so my memory isn't too great.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 16, 2010 11:24:57 GMT
I was reading the other day about a local legend that a train/some carriages were bricked up in an old tunnel at Crystal Palace, which was apparently a transference from an older legend about carriages being bricked up in an older disused tunnel (an atmospheric railway one?).
I remember also that there were rumours of a similar sort about a locomotive being buried in a collapsed bridge support in Scotland. So I wonder if this sort of thing is actually related to the common fear of being buried alive?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 16, 2010 11:33:07 GMT
Perhaps this is a cross-pollination of the fact that one of the boring machines is in the headings at Moorgate, and has been so since the railway was completed?
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Post by The Tram Man on Jun 16, 2010 11:37:03 GMT
I saw something on Youtube from New York where they had found some old 19th century rail tunnels, and what was insode the tunnels?
And old steam loco from the Long Island Railroad, i think it was.
I also heard something about a man hwo found an old steam loco buried in his back garden. That was also in the USA.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jun 16, 2010 11:39:13 GMT
Just like the other one that there are nearly 1000 steam locos in storage in a disused mine somehwere in the North west. This is so that if there were ever an attack which totally destroyed both our electricity system and our oil supplies we would still have native steam driven by native coal. The theorists point to the huge difference between locos supposed to have been scrapped and those recorded as cut up by the scrapyards. At least, that's what "They" say. I am quite partial to the odd conspiracy theory and the more extreme the more amusing...... Back on topic  the Moorgate platforms were part of the GN&C line and that explains the SSL gauge tunnels. And everything was removed for compassionate reasons. So the wall at the end of the overrrun could now be seen if it had not been deliberately obscured. |
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Jun 16, 2010 11:43:16 GMT
I've not heard of the Crystal Palace theory....
They say (and I don't know how accurate it is) that the first three cars were about half their original size when recovered. I suppose it's possible that the leading car was left there, but cars 2 and 3 would have had to have been removed to get to the first car. As far as I can remember the remaining 3 cars were still in the platform, and for a guess were moved away from the scene under their own power.
I also seem to recall something about the lights at Moorgate station, something to do with them looking as though the station was closed, or similar.
As stated, I'm going on memory without knowing the full facts, and I was only 7 at the time.
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Jun 16, 2010 11:47:25 GMT
Back on topic the Moorgate platforms were part of the GN&C line and that explains the SSL gauge tunnels. And everything was removed for compassionate reasons. So the wall at the end of the overrrun could now be seen if it had not been deliberately obscured. But it was the Northern Line (Highbury branch) operated with tube stock (38ts at the time) If the tunnels were big enough, why didn't they use SSL stock as opposed to tube stock? |
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jun 16, 2010 11:51:40 GMT
The Crystal Palace Atmospheric Railway was the subject of a discussion many years ago at LURS. The rumour of the car being left in the old tunnel was discussed at length and yet nothing was found.
I gather that the remains of old London tramcars were used in the foundations whilst building the Beaver Estate in Hounslow (Heath). I just cannot reconcile this unless it was mahsed-up trolleybuses! The timescale is anachronistic. Unless, as evidenced by photos I have, that the cut-up steel was either used as rebar or melted-down and used as rebar.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2010 11:58:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2010 11:59:01 GMT
Back on topic the Moorgate platforms were part of the GN&C line and that explains the SSL gauge tunnels. And everything was removed for compassionate reasons. So the wall at the end of the overrrun could now be seen if it had not been deliberately obscured. But it was the Northern Line (Highbury branch) operated with tube stock (38ts at the time) If the tunnels were big enough, why didn't they use SSL stock as opposed to tube stock? 1. The Northern City Line was regarded as a branch of the Northern Line, which was run by tube stock. 2. There were enough spare cars of 38TS to run the line, while there were not many spare surface stock. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2010 12:01:25 GMT
Back on topic the Moorgate platforms were part of the GN&C line and that explains the SSL gauge tunnels. And everything was removed for compassionate reasons. So the wall at the end of the overrrun could now be seen if it had not been deliberately obscured. But it was the Northern Line (Highbury branch) operated with tube stock (38ts at the time) If the tunnels were big enough, why didn't they use SSL stock as opposed to tube stock? The GN&C was built to 'standard' (SSL rather than tube) gauge for through trains to & from the GNR - which didn't happen at that time: but it did have SSL gauge stock until c1940. Then it was made part of the Northern line, and changed to tube stock, as part of the 'Northern Heights' part of the New Works programme, which include making Finsbury Park-East Finchley part of the the tube, with through trains to High Barnet/Edgware/Bushey Heath - which again didn't happen, but the tube stock (and its status as part of the Northern line) remained until the BR GN electrification scheme of the 1970s (which did finally see through working!) |
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Post by Chris W on Jun 16, 2010 12:01:23 GMT
I was just two years old when the disaster happened... but it musy have made a huge impression on me as I've always been aware of this sad event. Some interesting articles: |
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Post by Rich32 on Jun 16, 2010 12:04:01 GMT
But it was the Northern Line (Highbury branch) operated with tube stock (38ts at the time) If the tunnels were big enough, why didn't they use SSL stock as opposed to tube stock? Cos of the hang-over of the Northern Heights plan - that would have used tube dimension stock and the track on the NCL had to be raised to account for the difference in floor height in the station tunnels. So unless they spent more money in putting the track back lower (which eventually they did during the conversion for the GN Electrics), it was much simpler and easier to use tube stock. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2010 12:05:40 GMT
I saw something on Youtube from New York where they had found some old 19th century rail tunnels, and what was insode the tunnels? And old steam loco from the Long Island Railroad, i think it was. I also heard something about a man hwo found an old steam loco buried in his back garden. That was also in the USA. When the Chicago Tunnel Company (freight underground) closed, the last train was loaded, but never ran, and just sat, ready (but steadily less so) to depart for years (don't know if it's still there) - it was ash for disposal. |
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Post by The Tram Man on Jun 16, 2010 12:33:05 GMT
I have just recived a PM from tubeprune hwo says that all pices of the cars where removed and examined as part of the enquiry.
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Jun 16, 2010 13:51:15 GMT
I have just recived a PM from tubeprune hwo says that all pices of the cars where removed and examined as part of the enquiry. I had a feeling that this would be the case, the subsequent enquiry found all the details of the trains last movements, so in hindsight they would have had to move it. I presume it was then melted down, but again that's speculation on my part. |
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Post by slugabed on Jun 16, 2010 16:37:35 GMT
Just a couple of points for clarity...
The platform involved was the Westernmost of the two....as a terminus "southboiund" and "northbound" are confusing.Indeed,had Moorgate been a through station,the platform invoved would have been the northbound...
As for the Crystal Palace Atmospheric Railway,I seem to remember there being an archaeological expedition to find remains of this line.Apparently,the edges of the park were sold for development after the line had closed,and the site of one of the portals was occupied by one of the large houses that line Crystal Palace Park Road.To be honest,I don't think the expedition found ANY remains whatsoever,and,indeed,it was unclear altogether where the line ran.
This was in the late '70s.....do we know any more now?
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Post by afarlie on Jun 16, 2010 16:46:49 GMT
Just like the other one that there are nearly 1000 steam locos in storage in a disused mine somehwere in the North west. This is so that if there were ever an attack which totally destroyed both our electricity system and our oil supplies we would still have native steam driven by native coal. The theorists point to the huge difference between locos supposed to have been scrapped and those recorded as cut up by the scrapyards. At least, that's what "They" say. I am quite partial to the odd conspiracy theory and the more extreme the more amusing...... Ah yes the S * * * * * * * c R * * * * e !... There are as many alleged locations for it as there sites for "King Aruthur's" Burial... ... |
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Post by Chris M on Jun 16, 2010 18:40:15 GMT
Ah yes the S * * * * * * * c R * * * * e !... There are as many alleged locations for it as there sites for "King Aruthur's" Burial... ... In the underground bunkers adjacent to the Box Tunnel is the one that I've heard most often. However, rather than maintaining a secret fleet of steam locomotives just for this eventuality, any sensible authority would just commandeer the ones from the various heritage railways around the country. After all there is no better place to hide something than in plain view! |
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Jun 16, 2010 19:16:22 GMT
Just a couple of points for clarity... The platform involved was the Westernmost of the two....as a terminus "southboiund" and "northbound" are confusing.Indeed,had Moorgate been a through station,the platform invoved would have been the northbound... As for the Crystal Palace Atmospheric Railway,I seem to remember there being an archaeological expedition to find remains of this line.Apparently,the edges of the park were sold for development after the line had closed,and the site of one of the portals was occupied by one of the large houses that line Crystal Palace Park Road.To be honest,I don't think the expedition found ANY remains whatsoever,and,indeed,it was unclear altogether where the line ran. This was in the late '70s.....do we know any more now? Moorgate was late Feb 75, I remember clearly hearing about it on Capital Radio in the Catford Centre milk bar, and everyone wanting to go and help. (Or just be nosey) Memory is a bit vague, and I can't think why I would have been in there unless it was half term  |
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Post by Chris M on Jun 16, 2010 22:13:32 GMT
Memory is a bit vague, and I can't think why I would have been in there unless it was half term Precisely it happened on Friday 28th of February 1975. This year that date was the first day back at school in Lewisham, so it is entirely possible that it was the end of the half-term week |
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Post by ruislip on Jun 16, 2010 23:13:08 GMT
Memory is a bit vague, and I can't think why I would have been in there unless it was half term Precisely it happened on Friday 28th of February 1975. This year that date was the first day back at school in Lewisham, so it is entirely possible that it was the end of the half-term week I remember walking home from school to catch a tube to Hillingdon from Ruislip Manor. My mum was with me and told me that there was a bad tube accident at Moorgate. My first reaction was that it was a Met train, but when I got home I learned it was on the Northern City branch. |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jun 17, 2010 7:12:25 GMT
ADMIN:Gentlemen - please can we get back on the specific topic as per title. Once again folks are drifting back to reminiscences of what was a truly awful day and it must end here. Sorry to be so firm, but those that have been with us a while, you'll know that Moorgate comes up at least once a year, often more, and it always gets introspective and maudlin ending up with one of the team having to stop it and lock the thread. Any more off topic and we'll have to lock this thread - it looks as if the original question has been answered anyway
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Post by Ben on Jun 17, 2010 9:04:20 GMT
Back on topic the Moorgate platforms were part of the GN&C line and that explains the SSL gauge tunnels. And everything was removed for compassionate reasons. So the wall at the end of the overrrun could now be seen if it had not been deliberately obscured. But it was the Northern Line (Highbury branch) operated with tube stock (38ts at the time) If the tunnels were big enough, why didn't they use SSL stock as opposed to tube stock? Off topic, but perhaps in a slightly better direction, I believe that Q8 once related to a plan to use refurbished Q38 cars on the Highbury branch in (I think) a letter to an edition of Underground News. It would be interesting to speculate on the reasons/implications, but perhaps this is for another thread. |
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Post by Colin on Jun 17, 2010 14:49:09 GMT
So why haven't you started a new thread then?
As Phil says, back on topic please or we'll simply lock the thread.....
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Jun 17, 2010 16:08:23 GMT
Thinking from a personal point of view, the OP has been answered, there isn't anything to add to the thread, so I'll lock this one, and if anyone else wishes to discuss anything different, please start a new thread. However, we'd rather this wasn't discussed here, the full enquiry reports are available on line, and I've been pointed in the right direction, so my knowledge base is greater: click here for details |
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 20, 2010 10:00:20 GMT
As a final addendum to this subject - I post below some information I've recieved by PM about the cars involved in this tragic accident.
I hope this will dispel any speculation which may have happened to them:
11175 and 012263 were cut up on site at Moorgate and their remains were removed from Neasden 24/4/75.
10175 was moved to Drayton Park depot and was cut up in Highbury Vale sidings on 27/9/75.
Pause for a moment and remember those involved as well as the carriages.
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the Moorgate platforms were part of the GN&C line and that explains the SSL gauge tunnels. And everything was removed for compassionate reasons. So the wall at the end of the overrrun could now be seen if it had not been deliberately obscured.
