Post by Colin on Feb 27, 2010 10:00:37 GMT
In an attempt to stop a thread drift in it's tracks, I've created this thread to discuss the the Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Inspectors, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1990, as brought up in this thread.
The original comments were:
The ticketing system does, I think, need to be more transparent - it shouldn't be FoI requests that get basic information about the system into the public domain. There also seems to be a reluctance from some staff to admit that they don't know, or they're wrong - I remember just after railcard discounts were introduced, being fobbed off by three ticket clerks being told that no such thing existed (despite a poster in the booking hall). Eventually I had to stand there and refuse to move unless the clerk fetched the supervisor; since the information was apparently in the traffic circular I hope the members of staff who didn't know about it were rapped over the knuckles.
And:
Tom, you keep banging on about this but you're wrong!!!! All that is required is that the driver must make himself identifiable - nothing more. So when I was involved in these cases (more common than you may think), you give the complainant the service number of the bus, along with the place and time; add to that the bus running number and the complainant has full information when contacting the supervisors/managers. There is no legal requirement on the buses for a driver to give his name.
And;
(3) A driver, inspector or conductor-
(a) shall, if so requested by a constable or other person having reasonable cause, give his name, the person by whom he is employed and, in the case of a driver, particulars of the licence by virtue of which he drives the vehicle; and
Unless it's since been repealed?
I had cause to look this up a few years ago after I got fed up of my fares being stolen by staff, the staff refusing to give names and the company claiming (when given a bus number) that that bus was off the road, or the other side of the county. The company went bust a few months later with cashflow problems.
Anyway - whatever the law says, it's certainly (IMO) good practice for staff in any organisation to give their name if asked, and surely beneficial for them (as presumably $some_minor_offence + not giving their name is worse than $some_minor_offence alone?).
Whilst Tom is right to some extent, I don't fully agree with his interpretation of who a driver must give his details to either. A driver only has to supply his details to a person "having reasonable cause". It is up to the driver to determine whether or not such a request is reasonable - quite frankly, if I were still driving buses today, I would not consider it reasonable to assist a passenger in pursuing a complaint against myself.
I believe the spirit of the regulations is meant to be applied in terms of a VOSA or DVLA inspector, a person acting on behalf of the traffic commissioner, a person involved in an vehicular or personal accident with the PSV being driven, etc, etc. Those are, IMO, what I would consider reasonable times to furnish somebody else with my name.
Now the appropriate regulations also apply to passengers, so I could easily counter with:
So if you were to try it on a bus I were driving, I suspect we'd have a stalemate situation. Mind you, I know the regulations well.....so I could just apply the whole of section 8 in it's entirety:
Now what makes you think that you must legally be issued with a ticket?
The original comments were:
I don't know about rail staff, but bus staff MUST by law give their name to any person who has a reason to want it. I have heard arguments about why this should be ignored, but that doesn't change the fact it is the law.
The ticketing system does, I think, need to be more transparent - it shouldn't be FoI requests that get basic information about the system into the public domain. There also seems to be a reluctance from some staff to admit that they don't know, or they're wrong - I remember just after railcard discounts were introduced, being fobbed off by three ticket clerks being told that no such thing existed (despite a poster in the booking hall). Eventually I had to stand there and refuse to move unless the clerk fetched the supervisor; since the information was apparently in the traffic circular I hope the members of staff who didn't know about it were rapped over the knuckles.
And:
but bus staff MUST by law give their name to any person who has a reason to want it. I have heard arguments about why this should be ignored, but that doesn't change the fact it is the law.
Tom, you keep banging on about this but you're wrong!!!! All that is required is that the driver must make himself identifiable - nothing more. So when I was involved in these cases (more common than you may think), you give the complainant the service number of the bus, along with the place and time; add to that the bus running number and the complainant has full information when contacting the supervisors/managers. There is no legal requirement on the buses for a driver to give his name.
And;
The PSV Regulations 1990 seem to imply that any person having reasonable cause should be given the name of the driver:
(3) A driver, inspector or conductor-
(a) shall, if so requested by a constable or other person having reasonable cause, give his name, the person by whom he is employed and, in the case of a driver, particulars of the licence by virtue of which he drives the vehicle; and
Unless it's since been repealed?
I had cause to look this up a few years ago after I got fed up of my fares being stolen by staff, the staff refusing to give names and the company claiming (when given a bus number) that that bus was off the road, or the other side of the county. The company went bust a few months later with cashflow problems.
Anyway - whatever the law says, it's certainly (IMO) good practice for staff in any organisation to give their name if asked, and surely beneficial for them (as presumably $some_minor_offence + not giving their name is worse than $some_minor_offence alone?).
Whilst Tom is right to some extent, I don't fully agree with his interpretation of who a driver must give his details to either. A driver only has to supply his details to a person "having reasonable cause". It is up to the driver to determine whether or not such a request is reasonable - quite frankly, if I were still driving buses today, I would not consider it reasonable to assist a passenger in pursuing a complaint against myself.
I believe the spirit of the regulations is meant to be applied in terms of a VOSA or DVLA inspector, a person acting on behalf of the traffic commissioner, a person involved in an vehicular or personal accident with the PSV being driven, etc, etc. Those are, IMO, what I would consider reasonable times to furnish somebody else with my name.
Now the appropriate regulations also apply to passengers, so I could easily counter with:
The conduct of passengers
8.—(1) Any passenger on a vehicle who is reasonably suspected by the driver, inspector or conductor of the vehicle of contravening any provision of these Regulations shall give his name and address to the driver, inspector or conductor on demand.
8.—(1) Any passenger on a vehicle who is reasonably suspected by the driver, inspector or conductor of the vehicle of contravening any provision of these Regulations shall give his name and address to the driver, inspector or conductor on demand.
So if you were to try it on a bus I were driving, I suspect we'd have a stalemate situation. Mind you, I know the regulations well.....so I could just apply the whole of section 8 in it's entirety:
8.—(1) Any passenger on a vehicle who is reasonably suspected by the driver, inspector or conductor of the vehicle of contravening any provision of these Regulations shall give his name and address to the driver, inspector or conductor on demand.
(2) Any passenger on a vehicle who contravenes any provision of these Regulations may be removed from the vehicle by the driver, inspector or conductor of the vehicle or, on the request of the driver, inspector or conductor, by a police constable.
(2) Any passenger on a vehicle who contravenes any provision of these Regulations may be removed from the vehicle by the driver, inspector or conductor of the vehicle or, on the request of the driver, inspector or conductor, by a police constable.
Now what makes you think that you must legally be issued with a ticket?