Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2010 14:16:58 GMT
[Hope this is the correct area.]
In an appendix of Rails Through the Clay, there are references to several terms I hope someone can explain further. 1) Edmundson tickets 2) bell punched
Also - are there any books, web sites, etc. with pictures of old Underground/Tube tickets from the various lines.
Thanks in advance.
|
|
|
Post by Tomcakes on Feb 15, 2010 16:23:15 GMT
Others will be able to answer better than I, but an Edmonson ticket was the standard ticket used in the UK for about 100 years. Each ticket was individually printed in advance and held in the ticket office, then date stamped - you can imagine how many different types were required! They were replaced by computerised systems which print on generic ticket stock, which is obviously easier than storing a massive variety of tickets. See here - although I don't know how many LU tickets are on it: therailticketgallery.fotopic.net/
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Feb 15, 2010 17:28:21 GMT
This really belongs in the Historical area, but I'll leave it here for a bit, so any other people who don't normally look in the historical area will have a look. Bell Punch TicketsClicky these were issued for FARE STAGES - not stations and were the precursors of the 'zone' fares. A bell punch was worn on a leather strap - see link for an example of the machine under the title 'Original Bell Punch Machine' - these (unsurprisingly) punched a hole in the ticket and rang a bell at the same time as an anti-fraud measure, the bell punch machine would record how many times it punched during a shift and this would have to be reconciled against the collected 'holes'. I've got several non-LU examples from the Welsh Highland/Ashover/Corris Railways and they all had the common theme of being available between a range of stations for the same given fare. Edmondson TicketsThese were pasteboard tickets of a standardised size - available in both 'single'and 'return' flavours (there were certain specialised three-parter Edmonson tickets) but the general difference between these and bell puch is that they were station to station tickets, not zone tickets like BPunch. Much as I would baulk at such a recommendation the Wonkypedia article is as good a place as any to start - I've got several thousand Edmonsons from long-dead narrow gauge railways, but AI has a few City and South London ones. I'll leave it there before we get into the realms of exchange tickets, accompanied dogs and the like: perhaps someone else who is a real billetist can take up the reins!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2010 19:32:44 GMT
Hmm...
The characteristic of Edmondson tickets (which were originated by Thomas Edmondson, who worked as a booking clerk (i.e. ticket seller) on Newcastle and Carlisle Railway) was that they were a standard size (about 1" by 2") cardboard, largely pre-printed [1] and sequentially numbered [2], stored in racks so that the next ticket could easily be taken, dated (by a date press) and issued. They, and the associated racks and date presses were feature of British (and many other) railways from their inception until recently - they were more or less universal for over a century until more sophisticated 'multi printer' ticket machines came along in the 1950s/60s, but it was only the computer revolution which led to their final replacement in the 1990s - but they are still commonly used on preserved railways (one of which has an appropriate printing press!). One of the Underground innovations of (IIRC) the 1920s was to simplify things, by only having the originating station and fare printed - their tickets were then valid to anywhere having that fare.
[1] 'Standard' tickets (i.e. for common journeys) were fully pre-printed, but there were also 'write in' variations for the unusual requirements (which tended to be preprinted 'from Here to ....', the There having to be written in and duly recorded). Study of the full range of variations is a large subject in its own right, as indicated by MRFS.
[2] so that they could easily be accounted for by means of the number of the 'next' ticket.
Bell Punch tickets on the other hand were the standard ticket on buses and trams - they were also preprinted and sequentially numbered, but had the possible 'origins' down the sides - the (wandering) conductor/guard carried a small rack of the required tickets. The punching (and ding) was to validate the ticket (and indicate whence it was valid) - I think the idea of the ding was that the passenger knew he had a newly punched ticket. They were normally only used on railways where there was a travelling ticket seller (rather than static ticket offices). For railways they were normally from a specific station - fare stages are a bus/tram concept, of specific, named stops used in a graduated fare structure, were fares changed (incremented). AIUI there was no great counting of the punches - accounting was done by knowing how many of which value tickets had been issued. Although there was another system that the General (London General Omnibus Company - the bus bit of the combine) tried, where the number of punches did have to correspond to the number of pence paid - and the punches did have to be counted.
|
|
|
Post by Tomcakes on Feb 15, 2010 20:06:58 GMT
They were normally only used on railways were there was a travelling ticket seller (rather than static ticket offices). It should be noted that once upon a time, almost every mainline railway station had a ticket office and staff present. The norm would be to buy your ticket at the station. These days, some stations have a staffing presence and a ticket office, others have no staff but a vending machine, others have nothing at all. Therefore the modern guard or ticket inspector often has to sell a larger number of tickets than would previously be the case.
|
|
|
Post by angelislington on Feb 15, 2010 20:47:26 GMT
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 15, 2010 20:52:44 GMT
At least: 1. Metropolitan Railway 2nd class single from Bishopsgate to Farringdon Street 2. GWR/Met (Notting Hill and) Ladbroke Grove to Kensington (Addison Road) via Latimer Road. 3. "Various tickets from pre-grouping and independent railway companies." a. Praed St to Kings Coss via Portland Road b. LSWR Wimbledon to Charing Cross (District) via Earls Court c. GNR East Finchley to Highgate (all right, that wasn't LU then) d. one on whicg the only legible text is "4565", "Wkmans Ticket" and "Oval" 4. "A selection of severed halves from what is now the route of Chiltern Railways."includes several including: a. One dog Harrow on the Hill to Chalfont & Latimer b. Amersham to Stoke Mandeville c. Great Missenden to Harrow on t'Hill (is that t'Yorkshire version?) d. Finchley Rd to Aylesbury e. Baker St or Marylebone to Northwood f. Chancery Lane, Covent Garden, Knightsbridge South Kensington or Charing Cross to Gerrards Cross 5. "A selection of six different Edmondsons from on and around what is now the route of Chiltern Railways." - includes Aylesbury to Baker Street/Marylebone/Gt Portland St/Edgware Rd/Regents Park
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Feb 15, 2010 22:56:29 GMT
d. one on whicg the only legible text is "4565", "Wkmans Ticket" and "Oval" That's a CSLR workmans - feast your eyes on these examples of Edmonsons - they're all City and South London (they're angelislington's, not mine) SinglesNote the overprint 'U' - this was for ticket collectors to see when the tickets were collected that the person had got off the train at the correct station U for eUston, other stations had colour-coding - green for Oval and red bands for Kings Cross - I can't remember all the details. A 'standard' station-to-station Edmondson - I've got a note (somewhere) of what the S.xx codes mean, they were generally for audit purposes (and depended which bit of the ticket was snipped or punched to indicate a priv. or a child: a reduced size ticket meant a reduced fare!) - it all depended on the whim of the railway and which bit was to be snipped out and which bit was to be retained to account for the shortfall in cash. Note that this is a multi-destination ticket, but all in the same fare zone of 1d. An oddity, this one: it is a machine issue exchange ticket [1] . I'm not sure of the date, as unlike the rest it is unfranked/dated - I think it dates from the post-1913 era, but I am a mite puzzled by the lack of UYndergrounD branding - it is not a strict Edmondson as such, but worth including as it is so curious. [1]between the C&SLR and the GNP&B. Returns (Used) This is a better example of a Workman's ticket - these were reduced fare tickets available on early trains in the day, there are a series of notices detailing which trains were the last to be able to have workmen's tickets booked on them. Although this is almost Edmondson size, I suspect that it is machine-issue as it is undated and distinctly thinner than the other examples of pasteboard. I also suspect that this is an exchange ticket, issued at machine 1 at Clapham Road, valid via Bank to Chancery Lane or Liverpool Street on the Central: another oddity - it is dated 1 NO 1 [splodge] (1910 - 1919) so it probably dates from the UERL era - but I'd have to check on my dates - if it were signalling or WTTs I'd be fine, but for tickets I'm really making it up on the hoof! I don't offhand recognise the numeration - it isn't Edmonson reversed numeral, nor a Waterlow derivative: unless this was a Waterlow derivative for machine tickets? <shrug> Look carefully at the right-hand edge, you can see that the ticket is perforated - these return tickets were torn in half: all the example you see are used return halves - the outward half would have the stations reversed, and has been retained for audit at the terminating station; the workmans ticket above has the orientation through 90° - which is *not* the normal British convention, unless you've got lots of lines of text to print on the ticket. What's missing from this ticket then? Note that you can make out the 'E' of heffalump on the other side of the ticket - the conditions were probably spaced differently - these tickets were all individually typeset in a press - I've got adjacent numbered Manx Northern tickets from the same printing and you can see how the type has moved around slightly. I guess that the colour for Kennington was blue. Oval green , but I included this one as it has the fare hand-amended by the booking clerk, saves reprinting costs.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2010 11:56:45 GMT
Even Diana can add a bit here! Bell Punch is in capitals because it was the initial product of the Bell Punch Co, whose factory was in Riverside Way, on the west side of Uxbridge (in the beginning the were in The City). They grew into all sorts of business machines like cash registers and calculators, but the original Bell Punch unit was a standard for tram and bus conductors. Not really suited to the wider range of railway fares. anita-calculators.info/html/origins_of_bell_punch_co_.htmlBlocks of tickets were held for various values, all different colours, by the conductor, when a fare was sold one was taken out, put into the machine worn around the neck, a handle pressed, a bell went Ding, and a round hole was punched in the ticket at the starting point, which were printed round the edge (some had printed names and were route-specific, others just had numbers and were generic). If at the end of the conductor's shift there was any disagreement between total cash and the start/end of all the ticket serial numbers, the machine could be opened up with a special key kept only in the cash office, and the different coloured punchings of the shift, retained in the machine, could be counted and reconciled to the cash. Otherwise the punchings were tipped out at the end of each shift, and the machine kept in the cash office until next issued. They moved on to more sophisticated ticket machines later, but this was the original.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2010 13:53:15 GMT
Thanks to all for such detailed information.
The Bell Punch equipment sounds similar to items used on streetcars (trams) here way back when. Originally the flat fare on a lot of streetcars was five cents (aka - a nickel). Fraudulent conductors used to be caught "pinching nickels" - collecting the fare but keeping it for themselves.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2010 4:41:51 GMT
"a round hole was punched in the ticket at the starting point"
Not always. Some systems punched the point where the ticket would cease to be valid. In London, the motor buses used one method and the trams and trolleybuses used the other.
|
|
SE13
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2013
Glorious Gooner
Posts: 9,737
|
Post by SE13 on Feb 17, 2010 9:44:47 GMT
Somewhere at my parents house, I have some Edmonson tickets with the now flattened Lincoln St. Marks train station as the destination. Given that I haven't lived there for the best part of 25 years, they may take some finding!
However, next time I'm there, I'll poke around in the loft where all my memorabilia is stored, and if I can locate them, I'll bring them to the Acton meet where someone may have use for them.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2010 20:21:43 GMT
|
|
roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,257
|
Post by roythebus on Feb 17, 2010 23:57:19 GMT
SE13, you should know better! It's a RAILWAY station, not a train station!! Horrible modernisms, pah.
Back to the OP, child i.e. half fare Edmunson tickets were literally cut diagonally in half by the issuing booking clerk!
|
|
SE13
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2013
Glorious Gooner
Posts: 9,737
|
Post by SE13 on Feb 18, 2010 9:17:00 GMT
Thinking back, I ought to have dozens with Ladywell, Lewisham, Catford and London Bridge destinations from my weekly trips to Arsenal, and quite a number of the football special tickets as well for away games.
I kept every programme, ticket and train ticket from when I was a kid, and given that I clocked up nearly 1,000 matches over the years, there must be quite a decent haul........
In fact, I ought to have the old "Capital Cards" in among that lot as well.
|
|