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Post by tubebasher on Jan 20, 2010 21:21:02 GMT
On Sunday evening I travelled on a Piccadilly line train that (because of disruption on the Ealing Broadway branch of the District line) ran on the District line track and called at all stations (Chiswick park etc) between Acton Town and Hammersmith. Is this unusual?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 21:53:10 GMT
On Sunday evening I travelled on a Piccadilly line train that (because of disruption on the Ealing Broadway branch of the District line) ran on the District line track and called at all stations (Chiswick park etc) between Acton Town and Hammersmith. Is this unusual? No. More common on the west though. The request normally comes from Acton Town station to the Piccadilly line and is a local arrangement.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 22:11:09 GMT
Equally of interest was that when the original failure occurred at Hanger Lane Junction just after 08.00, the Piccadilly Line train that was stalled at the junction home signal was sent to Ealing Broadway - unusual (i.e. not a daily occurrance), but not unusual (done to clear the area of trains during failures), if you get my drift!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 22:54:44 GMT
the Piccadilly Line train that was stalled at the junction home signal was sent to Ealing Broadway Are there any pictures of Piccadilly trains at Ealing Broadway?
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 20, 2010 22:58:10 GMT
One of the football special in the 80s...
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jan 21, 2010 7:45:10 GMT
...there was one in Underground News I think of an Ealing Bdy-Arsenal non-stop footie special. This would be in the early 80s!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 16:44:24 GMT
Equally of interest was that when the original failure occurred at Hanger Lane Junction just after 08.00, the Piccadilly Line train that was stalled at the junction home signal was sent to Ealing Broadway - unusual (i.e. not a daily occurrance), but not unusual (done to clear the area of trains during failures), if you get my drift! Likewise the District occasionally sends big trains to Northfields......
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 17:32:38 GMT
...there was one in Underground News I think of an Ealing Bdy-Arsenal non-stop footie special. This would be in the early 80s! I've never quite understood how they can do a non stop service through umpteen stations without being held up by stopping trains in front. Did they just not open the doors when in intermediate stations Oracle? Sorry for being so dense if there's an obvious explanation, I'm a rank amateur having never been employed in any capacity by the Underground and have nowhere near the knowledge that some of you guys have! ;D
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Post by 1938 on Jan 21, 2010 19:39:02 GMT
...there was one in Underground News I think of an Ealing Bdy-Arsenal non-stop footie special. This would be in the early 80s! I've never quite understood how they can do a non stop service through umpteen stations without being held up by stopping trains in front. Did they just not open the doors when in intermediate stations Oracle? Sorry for being so dense if there's an obvious explanation, I'm a rank amateur having never been employed in any capacity by the Underground and have nowhere near the knowledge that some of you guys have! ;D I think the main purpose was to keep the doors shut all the way to prevent rival supporters getting on the same train and causing trouble.
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Post by angelislington on Jan 21, 2010 22:05:21 GMT
heh - I can imagine! So how do you non-stop if there's 'traffic' in front of you? Just be patient?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 22:09:19 GMT
It also avoids having several hundred fans from the West Country or Wales getting off at Paddington and clogging up Zone One, when they could be all on one train. Sensible idea really, no-one from that way ever plays Arsenal regularly though.
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jan 21, 2010 22:43:09 GMT
I have been on several railtours on the LU and we never had any problem following servce trains. so a non-stopper Footex would not have any problems I would have thought. Of course a Picc could be sent via the DR between Acton Town and Hammersmith of course.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 22:51:57 GMT
heh - I can imagine! So how do you non-stop if there's 'traffic' in front of you? Just be patient? From practical experience (ie, running the occasional out of service train in traffic hours), the easiest thing to do is simply run a shade slower than usual. For most platforms you are also required to slow to 5mph passing the station starter so although you don't have the full delay of actually stopping and taking on passengers, you do at least have a bit of a slow-down built in.
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Post by 1938 on Jan 21, 2010 23:32:47 GMT
heh - I can imagine! So how do you non-stop if there's 'traffic' in front of you? Just be patient? Basically yes, as undergroundgal has stated, but technically you can stop at each station with a dwell time without opening the doors and then move on. I'm afraid the non-stop description of those football specials fools the punters into thinking the train is going to overtake the service trains ahead of them, even in the pipe!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 23:39:13 GMT
Usually, trains that are not supposed to stop at stations (engineering trains or empty trains going to maintenance ) avoid to enter a station as long as the starter is red. This way, they are not abliged to stop along the platform, within reach of waiting customers (or in the case of supporters of the other team!)
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Post by 1938 on Jan 22, 2010 0:23:30 GMT
Usually, trains that are not supposed to stop at stations (engineering trains or empty trains going to maintenance ) avoid to enter a station as long as the starter is red. This way, they are not abliged to stop along the platform, within reach of waiting customers (or in the case of supporters of the other team!) Absolutely, one can only imagine the reaction between the away supporters on the train with the doors closed, and the home fans waiting on the platform.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2010 0:58:27 GMT
Usually, trains that are not supposed to stop at stations (engineering trains or empty trains going to maintenance ) avoid to enter a station as long as the starter is red. This way, they are not abliged to stop along the platform, within reach of waiting customers (or in the case of supporters of the other team!) I remember reading a comment that stopping trains stopped in stations, while non-stop trains stopped between them.
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Post by North End on Jan 22, 2010 1:14:31 GMT
Usually, trains that are not supposed to stop at stations (engineering trains or empty trains going to maintenance ) avoid to enter a station as long as the starter is red. This way, they are not abliged to stop along the platform, within reach of waiting customers (or in the case of supporters of the other team!) Yes, the official rule is that the train should be stopped just before the platform, and then restarted once the starting signal is seen to have cleared. Unfortunately, this can present a problem, as many starting signals are approach controlled - either by a timing section, or else the programme machine / computer will not call the route until the platform track circuit has been occupied. So it takes some experience to know which signals work in this way, and to avoid shooting themselves in the foot, a lot of T/Ops will simply stop the train normally in all platforms.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2010 19:06:23 GMT
Unfortunately, this can present a problem, as many starting signals are approach controlled - either by a timing section, or else the programme machine / computer will not call the route until the platform track circuit has been occupied. So it takes some experience to know which signals work in this way, and to avoid shooting themselves in the foot, a lot of T/Ops will simply stop the train normally in all platforms. Would you not expect the drivers to know and remember these as part of route knowledge? Especially if a rule saying they should be stopping outside platforms exists?
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Post by Tom on Jan 22, 2010 23:06:17 GMT
Usually, trains that are not supposed to stop at stations (engineering trains or empty trains going to maintenance ) avoid to enter a station as long as the starter is red. As a signalling engineer, the idea of a train berthing away from a signal is bad news. We provide (and have spent considerable sums of money in recent years on improving) additional diversity at signal berths to protect against a wrong side track circuit failure, the theory being that the signal berth is the most likely place for a train to stop for a prolonged period. The practice of stopping outside the station means that their train is sitting on a track circuit which does not have the aforementioned diversity arrangements thus putting the Train Operator and their passengers at risk in the event of a wrong side track circuit failure. It also does nothing for the throughput of trains as they are probably holding a signal in rear at danger which would clear if they berthed in the platform at the next signal!
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Post by happybunny on Jan 23, 2010 5:14:31 GMT
Usually, trains that are not supposed to stop at stations (engineering trains or empty trains going to maintenance ) avoid to enter a station as long as the starter is red. As a signalling engineer, the idea of a train berthing away from a signal is bad news. We provide (and have spent considerable sums of money in recent years on improving) additional diversity at signal berths to protect against a wrong side track circuit failure, the theory being that the signal berth is the most likely place for a train to stop for a prolonged period. The practice of stopping outside the station means that their train is sitting on a track circuit which does not have the aforementioned diversity arrangements thus putting the Train Operator and their passengers at risk in the event of a wrong side track circuit failure. It also does nothing for the throughput of trains as they are probably holding a signal in rear at danger which would clear if they berthed in the platform at the next signal! But the rule book instructs us to do exactly that:
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 23, 2010 6:17:38 GMT
Ah yes, one wonders at times whether 'operating' really understand the signalling system at all.
I have to say that I always thought such operational matters were discussed with signalling engineers and that mutual agreement was reached to ensure both the safety of the travelling public and the safety integrity of the signalling system in all operational circumstances. Is this something that changed with the outsourcing of engineering or did I spend nearly three decades working under a misapprehension ?
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Post by Ben on Jan 23, 2010 17:06:53 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2010 17:42:21 GMT
Thank you Ben, much appreciated mate! ;D Rich
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Post by dannyofelmpark on Jan 23, 2010 18:28:26 GMT
the Piccadilly Line train that was stalled at the junction home signal was sent to Ealing Broadway Are there any pictures of Piccadilly trains at Ealing Broadway? I read somewhere that the United Airlines train once made it to Ealing Broadway
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2010 20:53:54 GMT
Are there any pictures of Piccadilly trains at Ealing Broadway? I read somewhere that the United Airlines train once made it to Ealing Broadway There is a tale of a Picc train that accepted a wrong signal to Ealing Broadway. The customers made it back to Ealing Common. Then that Picc train also accepted a wrong signal!
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Post by District Dave on Jan 23, 2010 20:58:12 GMT
I read somewhere that the United Airlines train once made it to Ealing Broadway There is a tale of a Picc train that accepted a wrong signal to Ealing Broadway. The customers made it back to Ealing Common. Then that Picc train also accepted a wrong signal! Indeed I was told that story by Tubeprune some years ago - I'm pretty sure it was during his time on the Picc and I *think* he can probably name names - though of course he's far too discrete to do so (and - no - it wasn't he!).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2010 23:23:42 GMT
The United Airlines train (units 196+167) was "launched" at Heathrow on 19.06.95 and entered service in its new livery in the evening peak on that same day. It was meant to be kept on the Heathrow service, but the Picc being the Picc, it didn't always happen like that.
It's first trip to Uxbridge was the day following the launch as train 335 in the evening of 20.06.95.
The diversion to Ealing Broadway recalled by TP and Dave was in the morning of 21.06.95 - the following day! I can't recall whether it was a "failure" (at Hanger Lane Junction) or a "wrong signal" being offered and accepted.
To complete the picture it was "stopped" for refurbishment on 14.10.98.
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Post by Tom on Jan 24, 2010 22:53:18 GMT
Ah yes, one wonders at times whether 'operating' really understand the signalling system at all. I have to say that I always thought such operational matters were discussed with signalling engineers and that mutual agreement was reached to ensure both the safety of the travelling public and the safety integrity of the signalling system in all operational circumstances. Is this something that changed with the outsourcing of engineering or did I spend nearly three decades working under a misapprehension ? A few do, but they aren't great in number. I think this is one of the down sides of the outsourcing of engineering. The proper liaison between Operators and Engineers isn't there and the engineers are frequently viewed by the operators as being unnecessarily obstructive. Unfortunately, the advice of the engineers is open to being ignored by the operators and has been since the start of PPP as it's "their" (i.e. LU's) railway now and the engineers who design it are viewed as being just another contractor. It doesn't help that the people who are now involved in writing the rule books and other operational publications lack the experience of their predecessors so they don't always understand why something has been done the way it has. Also in these days of focusing on customer service it may appear better to the passenger to sit outside a station rather than in one with the doors closed. Personally, I would have thought that it would be better to draw into the platform at somewhere like Turnham Green and allow passengers to have the option of transferring onto a (potentially unaffected) District Line service, but hey, what do I know? (Other than about the risk of a train berthing away from a protected berth and the associated SPAD trap it creates, of course...)
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Post by North End on Jan 24, 2010 23:24:36 GMT
Ah yes, one wonders at times whether 'operating' really understand the signalling system at all. I have to say that I always thought such operational matters were discussed with signalling engineers and that mutual agreement was reached to ensure both the safety of the travelling public and the safety integrity of the signalling system in all operational circumstances. Is this something that changed with the outsourcing of engineering or did I spend nearly three decades working under a misapprehension ? A few do, but they aren't great in number. I think this is one of the down sides of the outsourcing of engineering. The proper liaison between Operators and Engineers isn't there and the engineers are frequently viewed by the operators as being unnecessarily obstructive. Unfortunately, the advice of the engineers is open to being ignored by the operators and has been since the start of PPP as it's "their" (i.e. LU's) railway now and the engineers who design it are viewed as being just another contractor. It doesn't help that the people who are now involved in writing the rule books and other operational publications lack the experience of their predecessors so they don't always understand why something has been done the way it has. Also in these days of focusing on customer service it may appear better to the passenger to sit outside a station rather than in one with the doors closed. Personally, I would have thought that it would be better to draw into the platform at somewhere like Turnham Green and allow passengers to have the option of transferring onto a (potentially unaffected) District Line service, but hey, what do I know? (Other than about the risk of a train berthing away from a protected berth and the associated SPAD trap it creates, of course...)Without wishing to get in to a debate about the rights & wrongs of this, because I can see advantages and disadvantages, this is not a new rule. Rule D2 of Section 11 of Appendix to the Rule Book 1969, states that "If the starting signal at a station closed during traffic hours is at Danger, the train must be brought to a stand just before reaching the platform, and should proceed when the starting signal is cleared, thus avoiding a stop at the platform. Should a train be brought to a stand in the platform, the Guard must not open the doors unless it is necessary to detrain passengers in emergency. If a train is stopped in the platform it must be restated in accordance with Regulation B6." Like the current rule book, this doesn't cover the situation of a train running empty, either due to defect or timetable.
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