Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2010 12:41:18 GMT
Hi All, What year or version of the Standard Stock had the first version of the E.P brake fitted. I know that the 1935 pre-1938 stock had a brake retarder fitted to the E.P and I'm sure the original Standard Stock only had non E.P Westinghouse brake so I was wondering when it actually came in. Darren.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 8, 2010 16:26:15 GMT
Many of the Standard Stock cars were fitted with EP brakes by 1935. 20 UCC 1929 cars did not have EP brakes because they operated with the 40 trailers/CT of Cammell Laird 1920 stock which only had Westinghouse Brakes.
I don't think any of the pre-1938 stock came with EP brakes, but I'm sure the Piccadilly Line stock (1927,28, 29, 31-34ts) were fitted with it first!
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jan 8, 2010 18:51:25 GMT
Yes,when the Piccadilly stock came in the 23/24 Northern Line Standard Stock was fitted,no self-lapper either,just release,hold & full E.P.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 8, 2010 19:35:28 GMT
The Northern also took some of the Piccadilly Line's 1927 stock too. The Northern was then left with the 1923/24/25/26/27 stock, which ultimately went to the Central.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2010 20:48:02 GMT
Thanks Guys The reason I ask is because I have seen pics of Standard Stock cabs with just the brake handle fitted like on the Met Electrics and some as in the Acton Museum with the brake mounted on the box containing the electrical contacts and wondered when each came in to being. Is the 1935 stock at Acton a conversion of an older unit. Darren.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 9, 2010 6:25:07 GMT
TTUL says that the 1931/34 cars were designed from the start for EP brakes and were thus so fitted. Older cars for the Pic were converted, this conversion included heaters, EP brakes and weak field control. The rest of the fleet gained this upon the modernisation programme.
As an aside there was a scheme to fit the Cammal Laird cars with EP brakes and transfer them to the Northern City. Both, though, were cancelled.
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 9, 2010 7:42:33 GMT
A special batch of 20 x 1928 motor cars were built to run with the Cammell Laird trailers. The first batch of Standard Tube Stock to be fitted with e.p. brakes from new was the 1929 Stock delivered to the Piccadilly Line. They had what was known as the A Type, 6-position brake controller. Conversion of older stocks came gradually in the mid to late 1930s. Mercury retarders (called "improved service braking" at the time) was fitted to all types in the late 1930s as part of the 1935-40 New Works Programme. Those cars remaining after withdrawal from passenger service which went into service stock had the e.p. brakes removed. For a time, they still had the Type A controllers but the e.p. facility was withdrawn as they took out the batteries. Later, the Type A controllers were replaced by No 4 Westinghouse brake valves. That's why you've seen them looking like Sarah's old equipment.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2010 15:03:45 GMT
Thanks All for the replies. Did the Feltham stock go through the modernisation plan and was the train number moved from under the M door window to the inside of the offside window. Darren.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 9, 2010 15:10:57 GMT
Ben, the 1920 trailers were found to be out of gauge(!)
So the EP brake was removed when the cars were converted to Ballast Motors?
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 9, 2010 15:35:21 GMT
Indeed! In pictures of them they seem to be fairly wide near the solebar. I wonder if that was the reason (something akin to C stock at HOTH siding)?
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 9, 2010 16:38:32 GMT
Thanks All for the replies. Did the Feltham stock go through the modernisation plan and was the train number moved from under the M door window to the inside of the offside window. Darren. Yes and yes
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 9, 2010 16:41:44 GMT
So the EP brake was removed when the cars were converted to Ballast Motors? Yes. The only way we could tell was that the audible warning was cut out and the cover was usually lying somewhere on the cab floor.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2010 18:33:51 GMT
That's good news because it looks like Richard has modeled the 1927 Feltham stock and I've given it a 1935 New Works Program cab. The sounds on this unit are really good and give it a really old rattly train sound. Shame we can only run it on the IOW line but I understand the Virtual Acton PW gang are on the case. Was 3327 Feltham stock.
BTW the resistance's contactor sounds from the outside were actually ripped from a DVD of the Standard Stock on the IOW.
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 9, 2010 20:43:24 GMT
That's good news because it looks like Richard has modeled the 1927 Feltham stock and I've given it a 1935 New Works Program cab. The sounds on this unit are really good and give it a really old rattly train sound. Shame we can only run it on the IOW line but I understand the Virtual Acton PW gang are on the case. Was 3327 Feltham stock. BTW the resistance's contactor sounds from the outside were actually ripped from a DVD of the Standard Stock on the IOW. Excellent work Darren. One point: The train line needle on the duplex gauge will not change when the e.p. brake is used. You won't see any change in either needle during normal service braking. Also, the normal braking procedure is to leave the brake applied a little while the train is stationary. Then the brake is released to allow the train to start.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2010 21:06:16 GMT
Thanks for the observations TP. That is my next task. To get the E.P working as it should. There is an E.P brake blueprint for it in RailWorks but I'm not sure if it works so I need to have a delve. The Train Pipe needle is actually indicating the brake cylinder pressure on my cab because I copied the RW blueprint for the Class 483 from the Isle of Wight. Surely some main reservoir air was used under normal service brake. Actually, I remember discussing this topic with you before. I need to look back through some previous posts. Thanks. Darren.
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 10, 2010 7:54:26 GMT
Thanks for the observations TP. That is my next task. To get the E.P working as it should. There is an E.P brake blueprint for it in RailWorks but I'm not sure if it works so I need to have a delve. The Train Pipe needle is actually indicating the brake cylinder pressure on my cab because I copied the RW blueprint for the Class 483 from the Isle of Wight. Surely some main reservoir air was used under normal service brake. Actually, I remember discussing this topic with you before. I need to look back through some previous posts. Thanks. Darren. The train line (black) and main line (red) needles do not move normally during braking since the train line isn't used and there is enough air in the main reservoir and brake reservoirs not to affect it. LU cabs do not have brake cylinder gauges in them like main line cabs. Brake cylinder gauges on LU stock are inside the saloon so the driver has no idea what the B/cyl pressure is. He doesn't need to unless something goes wrong. If you want to get the e.p. brake right for Standard Stock, you have to remember that it has the A Type brake controller. The one you have is working like the self-lapping D Type controller. The A Type controller has a holding position between release and application. To brake, you go from release to application then back to holding. If you leave it in application (as it appears on your simulation) the train will over brake and stop short. I don't know if it is possible to modify your programme but it's so good anyway no one but a ex- driver nut like me would notice.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2010 8:43:42 GMT
Thanks for the info TP. Now I know what I need to model to get the accuracy I want to achieve. I'll certainly have an attempt at it. I may need to ask the guys at Rail Simulator for some help on this one. Was there any proportional bits on the A type controller or was it just all or nothing in each position.
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 10, 2010 10:29:57 GMT
You are most welcome It was all or nothing in each position: Release, Holding, Application, etc. The time you held it in Application gave the brake level required and you then moved it back to Holding. You would release a little by going to Release and back to Holding. If you left it in application you would get a full service brake and the retarders would take over control. This would tend to waste air, particularly at lower speeds. Drivers were taught to approach the station at speed and to apply full e.p. at first and then ease off the brake in steps until just before the stop, when you release. Some learned that, with practice, you could stop on one application and one release. Defensive driving was not on the agenda in those days. It was considered wasteful of capacity, which is now being seen today. One other point to remember; everything has a lag time. From release to full e.p. was about 2.5s.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2010 10:47:09 GMT
Thanks TP. I remember DrJimi modelling the EP Brake for the MSTS 1938 stock. Maybe he can help with this one.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jan 11, 2010 19:39:56 GMT
..... Was there any proportional bits on the A type controller or was it just all or nothing in each position. It was all or nothing in each position: Release, Holding, Application, etc. The time you held it in Application gave the brake level required and you then moved it back to Holding. You would release a little by going to Release and back to Holding. If you left it in application you would get a full service brake and the retarders would take over control. This would tend to waste air, particularly at lower speeds. This behaviour is almost exactly the same as on first generation DMU vacuum brakes, so if one of your sim colleagues has done a DMU properly (most of them don't........) he should be able to help you a long way.
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Apr 29, 2010 8:11:04 GMT
Going slightly off-topic as someone mentioned DMU brakes, approaching fiunsbury Park one day with a 2-car Cravens at 70mph, my driver hit the platform at 70 and stopped bang on the 2 car mark! Quite a feat for a DMU with vac brakes and an experience I wouldn't like to repeat.
As for the comments on the A type EP, as said above, all or nothing. Remember the Q stock was fitted with that too, and my first official experience of training on the District was with an e/b Q stock in the am peak!
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