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Post by jamesb on Dec 15, 2009 23:39:02 GMT
I was thinking recently about the emergency train stop plungers on the central line, and thought of some questions...
- are they designed for use by members of staff, or members of the public?
At some stations, especially those with two platforms adjacent, in an emergency where you may have seconds to stop a train, it isn't always clear which plunger corresponds to which track, e.g. at Woodford WB platform, or at Mile End (people may think the plunger would stop a district line train), or at Roding Valley (two plungers are side by side at the entrance to the Chigwell bound platform). In open air stations, you may see someone on the opposite track and press the plunger on your platform, having no effect on the approaching train on the other platform?
- in the refurbished platforms with new help points, why aren't the plungers located in the same positions as the help points, like on the DLR?
In an emergency, e.g. someone on the track with train approaching, or someone dragged by train), a person may be drawn to the emergency button on a help point (which would bring them further away from the emergency train stop plunger).
- have the plungers ever been used?
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Post by happybunny on Dec 15, 2009 23:50:00 GMT
Passengers or staff id imagine, though probably more passengers, as in my experience when they have been operated staff have trouble re-setting them! (Keys breaking in the rusty lock, unable to find the remote re-set switch due to boxes being stored in front etc) so I don't think a member of staff would take there chance pressing one, they would just call the LC.
When there was a one under at Perivale once, I remember a passenger pressed the emergency stop buttons on both platforms (its an island)... not sure what good she thought it would do, maybe she thought the driver wouldn't have noticed the person jumping in front of his train... or maybe she thought he would say "ahhh well, lets fully berth anyway"
Remember these buttons don't turn off the TC... they just break the codes within the platform area causing a train to stop... but the driver could switch to restricted manual and carry straight on (though he shouldn't without reporting loss of codes first) or indeed if he has applied the rule at the previous signal, or is under rule, he may well be under restricted manual anyway... in which case the plunger would have no effect on the train!
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Post by Tomcakes on Dec 16, 2009 9:37:00 GMT
When there was a one under at Perivale once, I remember a passenger pressed the emergency stop buttons on both platforms (its an island)... not sure what good she thought it would do, maybe she thought the driver wouldn't have noticed the person jumping in front of his train... or maybe she thought he would say "ahhh well, lets fully berth anyway" Or perhaps, in a split-second decision, the passenger remembered that they had seen an "emergency stop" plunger on this platform before and so was naturally drawn to go and press it in such a situation. |
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Post by Chris M on Dec 16, 2009 11:35:37 GMT
Perhaps they thought it would make the line controller/station supervisor/emergency services aware that there was an emergency at that station, that it would turn the traction current off.
Maybe they thought it would make the train stop quicker, or they were doing it as a backup in case the train driver was in shock or otherwise traumatised.
All of these are, imo, perfectly logical and reasonable actions for someone to take in such a circumstance. Especially when there is no indication in any of the notices associated with the plungers what actually happens when you push one - nor should there be in my opinion.
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Post by Tomcakes on Dec 16, 2009 12:55:38 GMT
Perhaps they thought it would make the line controller/station supervisor/emergency services aware that there was an emergency at that station, that it would turn the traction current off. Maybe they thought it would make the train stop quicker, or they were doing it as a backup in case the train driver was in shock or otherwise traumatised. All of these are, imo, perfectly logical and reasonable actions for someone to take in such a circumstance. Especially when there is no indication in any of the notices associated with the plungers what actually happens when you push one - nor should there be in my opinion. ... because, as I said, the passenger will likely see the plunger as a function which will cause the train to stop. How the train stops is not important to them (think how many members of the public think a train has a steering wheel?!), it just does it. The natural thing in such an emergency is to go to the big red button marked "emergency" and push it! |
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Post by jamesb on Dec 16, 2009 15:25:41 GMT
Perhaps they thought it would make the line controller/station supervisor/emergency services aware that there was an emergency at that station, that it would turn the traction current off. Maybe they thought it would make the train stop quicker, or they were doing it as a backup in case the train driver was in shock or otherwise traumatised. All of these are, imo, perfectly logical and reasonable actions for someone to take in such a circumstance. Especially when there is no indication in any of the notices associated with the plungers what actually happens when you push one - nor should there be in my opinion. ... because, as I said, the passenger will likely see the plunger as a function which will cause the train to stop. How the train stops is not important to them (think how many members of the public think a train has a steering wheel?!), it just does it. The natural thing in such an emergency is to go to the big red button marked "emergency" and push it! Yes, but there is also a big green button on most platforms marked emergency - which has no direct effect of stopping the train, and is located at a separate location to the train stop button. It's a bit confusing in a situation where you might have seconds to act. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 19:53:08 GMT
- are they designed for use by members of staff, or members of the public? Both for emergency's as once operated they will destroy ATP codes not only in the platform area but both signaling sections either side of the platform, and the train will apply the emergency brake. They are used by staff during CCTV failure. Once the right is given they must stand next to the nearest plunger to operate in the event of an emergency as the train departs the platform At some stations, especially those with two platforms adjacent, in an emergency where you may have seconds to stop a train, it isn't always clear which plunger corresponds to which track, e.g. at Woodford WB platform, or at Mile End (people may think the plunger would stop a district line train), or at Roding Valley (two plungers are side by side at the entrance to the Chigwell bound platform). In open air stations, you may see someone on the opposite track and press the plunger on your platform, having no effect on the approaching train on the other platform? The plunger normally facing towards the platform edge is for that platform, and they are normally marked. - in the refurbished platforms with new help points, why aren't the plungers located in the same positions as the help points, like on the DLR? Cost. They are a part of the signaling system and expensive item to move. - have the plungers ever been used? Yes, normally by kids or upset passengers. The result is trains applying the rule into and out of the platform area. |
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Post by Tom on Dec 17, 2009 0:25:30 GMT
- in the refurbished platforms with new help points, why aren't the plungers located in the same positions as the help points, like on the DLR? Cost. They are a part of the signaling system and expensive item to move. There is a little more to it than that. ESPs are positioned so as to be equally spaced along the platforms. Help points are not always similarly spaced. |
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Post by Chris M on Dec 17, 2009 0:30:53 GMT
So by the sounds of it, it would be easier and cheaper to move the help points to be adjacent to the ESPs - should there ever be a desire to.
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Post by Colin on Dec 17, 2009 2:18:43 GMT
Maybe, but...
The ESP's are in a particular place for a reason - to be accessible from an equal distance along a given platform.
Help points are generally in a place where they are easily seen and therefore easily accessed by customers. Help points also have CCTV directly on them so that may also dictate where they are positioned.
Point is the two devices have different uses and so consequently it may well often be the case that differing locations are best suited.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2009 6:46:15 GMT
Additional ESP's should have been incorperated in the help points when installed as there is already an emergency button on them.
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Post by Chris M on Dec 17, 2009 9:18:35 GMT
I'm not sure that having too emergency buttons on the same console would have been a good idea. The one time I've used the emergency button on a help point was not for a reason that would merit stopping or delaying trains, but did (I thought) require an urgent speaking to a staff member when none were present on the platform [1] so pushing the ESP emergency plunger (had there been one, on this occasion I was on a Piccadilly Line platform) by mistake or through not knowing which button to press it would (a) have stopped trains unnecessarily and (b) not got me through to a member of staff quickly. So adjacent but physically separate buttons would seem to be the best imo, labelled something like "Emergency train stop" and "Emergency help point". [1]I thought my camera had been stolen from my bag on a crowded Picc train in zone 1 when I got off the train and it wasn't there (I can't remember which station). I pushed the emergency help button, but before I got an answer I realised my camera was round my neck  |
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Post by Tom on Dec 17, 2009 11:17:01 GMT
It's a nice idea in theory, but there is the issue that the people who maintain help points would then have access to interfere with signalling equipment, and they generally don't have the same competence requirements placed upon them.
As a rule, it is generally not preferred to mix two disciplines equipment in the same housing.
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Post by jamesb on Dec 17, 2009 14:54:35 GMT
It's a nice idea in theory, but there is the issue that the people who maintain help points would then have access to interfere with signaling equipment, and they generally don't have the same competence requirements placed upon them. As a rule, it is generally not preferred to mix two disciplines equipment in the same housing. Maybe in the future they will change. Because fire alarm call points are incorporated into help points, and I assume they are a separate piece of equipment to the intercom part - there are still separate fire alarm call points in addition to the ones in help points at stations. And on the DLR, they have one "Passenger Alarm" sign, which has an alarm button, fire alarm call point, and emergency train stop incorporated into one. Maybe I am being a bit pedantic, I just approached it from the point of view of Joe Public, who might look at whatever is nearest to them (or whatever they come across first) in the event of needing to stop the train. The help point, which is more visible, might draw the person away from the train stop button. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2010 15:57:00 GMT
OK then. How about a nice big red sticker on the help point with big white arrows pointing in the direction of the nearest ESP?
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