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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 17:56:19 GMT
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 14, 2009 18:06:23 GMT
Isn't that a juice rail ice scraper?
The handle was nothing special, just like a hoe.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 19:44:03 GMT
Yes, it's an ice scraper, and it has a single wooden shaft like a broomsitck. That brown marking is just wood grain.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 21:43:58 GMT
Yes, it's an ice scraper, and it has a single wooden shaft like a broomsitck. That brown marking is just wood grain. Thanks guys, are you sure Jim. In that second picture, it definitely looks like two separate handles.
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Dec 14, 2009 21:58:20 GMT
Yes, it's an ice scraper, and it has a single wooden shaft like a broomsitck. That brown marking is just wood grain. Thanks guys, are you sure Jim. In that second picture, it definitely looks like two separate handles. Its two ice scrapers , one for the + rail, one for - rail, remember this stock had a driver and a guard.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 12:14:33 GMT
Was that big bar next to it for shorting the juice rails in an emergency.
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Post by tubeprune on Dec 16, 2009 17:15:07 GMT
There are two paddles, two ice scrapers and an old type SCD. We normally only used one ice scraper as the guard did the scraping while the driver drove the train up to where you had scraped. He kept warm; you did too but for different reasons!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 21:14:21 GMT
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neilw
now that's what I call a garden railway
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Post by neilw on Dec 18, 2009 16:08:26 GMT
Darren, assuming the SCD is the same design as that originally fitted to the 62TS, then I have three in the garage, which I can photograph for you. The only problem is that they are behind a pile of heavy spares that I will need to shift ( shoebeams, seats, cab doors, MAR, etc, ), and it is freezing cold here today, so I'm afraid you'll have to wait a day or two-sorry.
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Post by tubeprune on Dec 18, 2009 18:57:36 GMT
I don't have a photo of one but there was an instruction which had a picture of it being used. Does anyone remember this or have a copy of it?
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Dec 18, 2009 22:20:49 GMT
Gorblimey, don't they carry ANY equipment in trains these days? the above answers are correct; a juice rail scraper, two paddles for lifting the shoes to isolate the train in emergeny, and a short circuit device (SCD).
When I trained as a guard (in the steam days) we were shown how to use all these devices and had to use them as well. As a BR driver, we had similar equipment, but not scrapers. We had to use the SCD in Waterloo south sidings to isolate an 8-SUB fully cut in, and were shown how to break the arc created with a second paddle.
All good fun that the elfensafetea lot probably wouldn't even look at today! but in those days it was a real job, so I'm told.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 19, 2009 0:57:48 GMT
Gorblimey, don't they carry ANY equipment in trains these days? the above answers are correct; a juice rail scraper, two paddles for lifting the shoes to isolate the train in emergeny, and a short circuit device (SCD). When I trained as a guard (in the steam days) we were shown how to use all these devices and had to use them as well. As a BR driver, we had similar equipment, but not scrapers. We had to use the SCD in Waterloo south sidings to isolate an 8-SUB fully cut in, and were shown how to break the arc created with a second paddle. All good fun that the elfensafetea lot probably wouldn't even look at today! but in those days it was a real job, so I'm told. Mmmmmmmm, sparkly!
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Post by setttt on Dec 19, 2009 1:07:33 GMT
Gorblimey, don't they carry ANY equipment in trains these days? the above answers are correct; a juice rail scraper, two paddles for lifting the shoes to isolate the train in emergeny, and a short circuit device (SCD). We carry all that and quite a bit more! (and have to use it if required)
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 19, 2009 1:25:22 GMT
Does anyone remember this or have a copy of it? Errrrr...... I *might* have a copy - I'm remembering a drawing of a bloke looking away as the SCD went down. Does that sound about right? Certainly the instructions date from when people were regularly expected to be familiar with live rails and their arcing - it was treated as part of the job, rather than something that is to be suffered as an occupational hazard. Many, many moons ago I was taught to clip points by someone who was taught to clip them with the juice 'on' - doesn't make that person a hero, more familar with the consequences than scared of the hazards if you get my drift! And before anyone gets *really* upset about this, may I gently remind you about the (true) story of Wm. Traill and him sitting in his underpants on the live rail in front of the Board of Trade inspectors!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2009 10:52:09 GMT
Thanks for the replies and offers of support. How the hell did the SCD get applied with the juice on without the operator suffering 3rd degree burns. The short circuit current must be astronimical in this situation. Being an electrician, one has managed to short out 240v to earth backed by a 60 amp fuse due to an incorrectly wired (by a contractor) socket outlet and that was an experience I will never forget.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Dec 19, 2009 10:57:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2009 11:23:11 GMT
Thanks Ben That's the one I've modelled in the 1938 cab. Interesting, it says the traction current may be reduced or the voltage reduced by this device. Is it not just a solid bar or is there some semiconductor element or resistance in there to reduce the current and voltage
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Post by tubeprune on Dec 19, 2009 12:09:56 GMT
Does anyone remember this or have a copy of it? Errrrr...... I *might* have a copy - I'm remembering a drawing of a bloke looking away as the SCD went down. Does that sound about right? Yes. It might have been in Section 2 of the Appendix to the WTT. This RTC handout is a later version of what I remember: upminsterthroughtheyears.fotopic.net/p55950913.html Yes - we were trained to do it. We all did it and we were well aware of the hazards. We put in overhead leads, used gap jumpers, walked the track with the juice on, cleared rails of ice, climbed in and out of the cab without special platforms and even put down SCDs, sometimes without knowing for sure if the juice was on or off as I did once outside Acton. OK, what happened to his trousers?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 19, 2009 12:43:42 GMT
They were round his ankles - it was a demonstration of the 'safety' of electricity.
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neilw
now that's what I call a garden railway
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Post by neilw on Dec 19, 2009 15:40:22 GMT
there is a drawing on p83 of section 6 of appendix to rule book 1970
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2009 19:26:42 GMT
Thanks Ben That's the one I've modelled in the 1938 cab. The only thing is that the new type SCD was never in the 38 stock cabs when in passenger service. The new types were only introduced from 92 stock onwards and on stock refurb after that. The 38, 59 and 62 stocks had the fold out SCDs until the end.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Dec 19, 2009 22:21:14 GMT
Yes, we did have to put down the SCD with the juice on; no it didn't have a resistor in it or any semiconconductor (they weren't invented then). No you didn't get a shock, wood is not a good conductor of electricity, yes, you looked away to avoid arc eye.
The SCDs i trained with were made of an aluminium U girder with attachments that went on the juice rails. I forget the exact process, but we had to stand away from the posi rail in the 4', put one end of the SCD on the negi rail, then firmly bring the other end down on the posi rail, while looking the other way! we would then be told to wait for the tunnel lights to come on, MGs to stop running, or, on older stock, 1927 and Q, make sure the train lights went out! then the jiuce was off. But, confirm with a telephone call to the line controller.
On BR, the process was similar, stand in the 4', put the hooked end on the running rail, bring the other end up under the posi rail, again while looking the other way.
We were taught to respect the live rails and be familiar with the operation of trains as we may have had to detarin passengers with other trians still running.
Elfensafetea? Common sense prevailed in those days.
As long as the kettle worked...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2009 9:48:32 GMT
There must have been an amazing flash and bang doing it live. What current are the trips in the substation set at. I suppose that's dependant on section length.
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Dec 20, 2009 12:11:58 GMT
Ain't got a clue!
Dunnit at Ealing Common depot, Waterloo south sidings and Stewarts Lane Depot if that's any help. Cutting the arc using 2 paddles is fun too.
It makes a lovely flash and a bang. don't try this at home children!
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Post by railtechnician on Dec 20, 2009 15:21:40 GMT
There must have been an amazing flash and bang doing it live. What current are the trips in the substation set at. I suppose that's dependant on section length. A train draws up to 2000 Amps starting up and there can be more than one train in a section so the trips must be set to at least 2000A (assuming it normal to have two trains in a current section as an average) but probably not as much as 2500A. It is not unknown following a discharge with more than one train in a section for the breakers to trip out again as trains start up although it is less likely on shorter sections and of course most sections are usually double end fed. Obviously track parallelling on long sections may deviate somewhat as the trips at both ends of two roads are effectively coupled up to create one section. As for the SCDs it used to be an electrician's job to test the short circuit trip of the substation breakers routinely by placing an SCD down in live sections. Some sections occasionally required two electricians to successfully trip the breakers as an SCD had to be held on long enough for the trip to activate. SCDs, particularly the newer types, had a tendency to jump off the rails if not firmly held down. As for clipping and scotching points with the juice on, or doing point maintenance with the juice on as we used to do in depots and sidings where current remained on all night, or indeed walking and working on or about live track there was nothing intrinsically unsafe about such practices as long as one remained alert and focussed and used good old common sense. The worst possible scenario perhaps was working in a tube tunnel with the current on and trains running but as in all things knowing one's job, the appropriate rules and regulations and coming to a complete understanding with all involved about what was to be done and how was the key to success in a safe fashion. Such things tend not to be defined in the Working Manual in the modern H&S world but in the days of the Rule Book 'all parties must come to a complete agreement' created safe systems of work 'on the fly' but based upon the knowledge, experience, understanding, mutual trust and common sense of all involved.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Dec 20, 2009 15:31:07 GMT
The SCDs i trained with were made of an aluminium U girder with attachments that went on the juice rails. I forget the exact process, but we had to stand away from the posi rail in the 4', put one end of the SCD on the negi rail, then firmly bring the other end down on the posi rail, while looking the other way! With the old type of fold-up SCD it was almost impossible to do negative first, the hook was on the positive end, so positive first?
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Dec 20, 2009 17:25:21 GMT
Yes, you may be right there. It WAS a long time ago since I done that.
I was party to an amendment to the BR rule book in 1971 when BR introduced track circuit clips. Yours truly refused to work south of Putney Bridge because the DR stock wasn't equipped with TC clips. The book was promptly amended to exclude the use of TC clips on 4 rail sections because of the danger of some dimwit putting the TC clips across to posi and neggy instead of the running rails.
I received a "suggestions prize" bonus for pointing that out.
But yes, we were taught to put the SCD on the neggy end first!
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Post by railtechnician on Dec 21, 2009 10:19:33 GMT
Yes, you may be right there. It WAS a long time ago since I done that. I was party to an amendment to the BR rule book in 1971 when BR introduced track circuit clips. Yours truly refused to work south of Putney Bridge because the DR stock wasn't equipped with TC clips. The book was promptly amended to exclude the use of TC clips on 4 rail sections because of the danger of some dimwit putting the TC clips across to posi and neggy instead of the running rails. I received a "suggestions prize" bonus for pointing that out. But yes, we were taught to put the SCD on the neggy end first! When I first worked at LT in the 1970s it was a routine task for track circuits to be shunted when 'blocking the road'. In those days the rules were quite plain but required an amount of common sense. The man blocking the road (could be anyone, no Protection Masters in those days and no training, just chargehand's instructions!) would see the last trains through the site, put his lamp box [early CRID with either three large ES (240v) or a dozen small BC (100v) bulbs] on the juice rails, lay his dets and his red lamp and short circuit the platform track to maintain home signals at danger. On more than one occasion inexperienced staff sent to block the road (always at the station in rear of that at or from which work was to commence) rang to report the block was in place but that the shorting strip (length of bunched mains flex with two insulated crocodile clips for clipping onto the track circuit pigtails) had melted! The problem of course was generally due to a chargehand sending the least useful person to do what was then not generally recognised as a most important job! As for track circuit clips, well of course these days they are required in places such as Ealing Broadway and anywhere else infringed upon by Heathrow Express. They are used to bridge rails during rerailing and other works where an NR earth fault could otherwise become very dangerous. Of course the signal lineman still carries the 'shorting strip' to test tracks circuits and signalling operation which is not doubt what you are referring to as track circuit clips.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2009 17:51:25 GMT
Right, this is what I've done so far. Let me get this straight. The wooden handle folded out to give one longer than is shown in my pic. The O/P placed the hooked part of the SCD over the negative rail whilst appling pressure on the handle to keep the other end pivoted above the positive rail. I take it the hooks were to keep it in place on the negative rail. Then gravity aided the O/P to lift the handle and drop the other end sharply onto the postive rail breaking the circuit. Is this about right and does my SCD look right. Cheers. Darren.
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Post by 21146 on Dec 21, 2009 18:57:51 GMT
Right, this is what I've done so far. Let me get this straight. The wooden handle folded out to give one longer than is shown in my pic. The O/P placed the hooked part of the SCD over the negative rail whilst appling pressure on the handle to keep the other end pivoted above the positive rail. I take it the hooks were to keep it in place on the negative rail. Then gravity aided the O/P to lift the handle and drop the other end sharply onto the postive rail breaking the circuit. Is this about right and does my SCD look right. Cheers. Darren. Just checked Appendix 6 to the Rule Book, Breakdown Arrangements, 1983 pages 92 & 94; it was +ve rail first for SCDs then (both "Original Type" and "Magnetic Type") and that's how I've always put them down. When the Original Type was unfolded there was a pin on a chain to retain it in the open position that had to be slotted in. If this was missing it was awkward, but not impossible, to put down an SCD.
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