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Post by bringbackcrouchhil on Nov 27, 2009 16:14:40 GMT
As I was waiting for my Norther City Line train today I was staring at the advertising boards and realised they were on an abandoned platform that had been left to ruin. I think it was on the South Eastern Side of the station.
What trains used to pass through there? And how come the platforms are no longer used?
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Post by carlovel1 on Nov 27, 2009 18:34:33 GMT
Cant answer your question , but until about 2 years ago , there used to be a single carrage that I think belonged to a heratage train , very old looking and lots of graffitti!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2009 18:46:18 GMT
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Nov 27, 2009 18:47:46 GMT
Ah yes....."Doris" I think she was called....Old Pullman coach?
The platforms you are talking about are,I think,the platforms for the Canonbury Curve lines,which took trains headed for Broad Street.
These went during the re-modelling of the GN line around the time of electrification (c.1976).
The Northern Heights Platforms were to be to the East of the existing satation.A HUGE metal structure was in (my) living memory still there,uncompleted,to carry the tracks and platforms.The abutments by Seven Sisters' Road can still be seen.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2009 19:03:52 GMT
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 27, 2009 19:16:08 GMT
Northern Height platforms are now demolished; the structure was on the Station Road side of the station, if you look at the map on the subbrit site.
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Post by andypurk on Nov 27, 2009 22:32:52 GMT
As I was waiting for my Norther City Line train today I was staring at the advertising boards and realised they were on an abandoned platform that had been left to ruin. I think it was on the South Eastern Side of the station. What trains used to pass through there? And how come the platforms are no longer used? As part of the capacity improvements planned for the East Coast Mainline, this platform is due to be reinstated; the Up Goods line (which runs on the eastern side of the formation) will be upgraded to a full passenger route giving two up slow lines from Alexandra Palace to just after Finsbury Park. This will give a similar arrangement to the down side and will keep the King's Cross and Moorgate trains better separated than currently. This will especially useful when Cambridge and Peterborough trains start using the Thameslink route. Currently the Up goods is mainly used by trains running ECS from Hornsey to King's Cross and by freight heading for the King's Cross incline upto the North London line. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 27, 2009 23:52:13 GMT
The disused platform shown on the subbrit site is the former platforms 8 and 9, for northbound trains using the Highgate branch - note that, like platforms 2 and 3, the track has a platform face on both sides. (Norwood Junction has a similar arrangement) But if you were waiting for a Northern City train to Moorgate, this can't be what you were looking at. The southbound platform is still there and in use (platform 1) although the additional part-completed platforms built on the east side of the station in the late 1930s for the Northern Line extension have now been replaced by a bus station.
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Post by andypurk on Nov 28, 2009 0:46:24 GMT
The disused platform shown on the subbrit site is the former platforms 8 and 9, for northbound trains using the Highgate branch - note that, like platforms 2 and 3, the track has a platform face on both sides. (Norwood Junction has a similar arrangement) But if you were waiting for a Northern City train to Moorgate, this can't be what you were looking at. The southbound platform is still there and in use (platform 1) although the additional part-completed platforms built on the east side of the station in the late 1930s for the Northern Line extension have now been replaced by a bus station. The southbound platform in question isn't in use, Platform 1 is on the right hand side of the Up Slow track (when running towards King's Cross / Moorgate) whilst the platform in question is on the left hand side of the Up Slow, with the Up goods on the other face. This is a very similar situation to the Down side, where the down slow no has a platform face on either side. Diagram below, where - is a track, == is a platform in use and XXX is a platform out of use and/or partially dismantled (I've left out the crossovers and the connection to canonbury to/from the goods lines). (The ... are there because spaces don't seem to work for keeping things in place!!) From King's Cross.--------------------------------------> Down Goods ....................................................XXXXX ....................................................XXXXX From Moorgate.....--------------------------------------> Dn Moorgate ...................................==plat 6========= ...................................==plat 5========= From King's Cross.--------------------------------------> Down Slow ...................................==plat 4========= ...................................==plat 3========= From King's Cross.<-------------------------------------- Down Fast To King's Cross.....<-------------------------------------- Up Fast ...................................==plat 2========= ...................................==plat 1========= To Moorgate/KX....<-------------------------------------- Up Slow ....................................XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX ....................................XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX To King's Cross.....<-------------------------------------- Up Goods The platform in question, from the description, is the bit between the Up slow and Up goods, which still has access to the pedestrian subway (although the door is locked) and retains a platform face on the Up Goods. I have stood on this platform on a railtour photostop a few years back. It is planned to reinstate this to give a more symmetric layout to the station and a bit more leeway for Up trains running slightly out of course. The section between the Down Moorgate and Down Goods has mostly been demolished. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 28, 2009 15:56:00 GMT
note that, like platforms 2 and 3, the track has a platform face on both sides. The southbound platform is still there and in use (platform 1) The southbound platform in question isn't in use, Platform 1 is on the right hand side of the Up Slow track (when running towards King's Cross / Moorgate) whilst the platform in question is on the left hand side of the Up Slow, with the Up goods on the other face. My mistake: the platforms have been renumbered since the last time I changed trains there (I was going to Broad Street........) The platform we are discussing is the old platforms 1 and 2. |
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Post by roythebus on Nov 29, 2009 14:42:57 GMT
Hmm, must have been a while ago then ISTR working a train from Herftord North to Broad street in about 1977, they were always the Rolls Royce units for some reason.
The Pullman coach on the down side stood there for many years, maybe since the late 1960's. Having not been there for a long time, I don't kow what happened to it. It was quite tatty in the 1970's!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 29, 2009 15:08:57 GMT
Hmm, must have been a while ago then ISTR working a train from Herftord North to Broad street in about 1977, they were always the Rolls Royce units for some reason. It was just before electrification - probably the end of 1976. As I recall, all City services from the GN, both via Canonbury and via the Widened Lines, ceased when the GN&C was connected to the main line - CULG gives that date as Nov 8th 1976. I think the rolling stock was a Cravens set - I know they and the non-corridor loco-hauled stock were the only things allowed on the Hotel Curve, but the longer-framed RR stock may have been allowed on the Canonbury route. Now I think back on it - I actually got a train FROM Broad Street to Finsbury Park via Canonbury, and then crossed to the paltform we are discussing to return to York Way (evening services ran empty from there to Moorgate). This was on, or very close to, the last day of operation, about a month after I moved to London |
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Post by bringbackcrouchhil on Nov 29, 2009 17:23:03 GMT
Thanks for all the detailed replies, from the diagram above it was the platform between the up goods and up slow. I'm a bit confused, are we agreed that was the old broad street platform?
When the Thameslink project is done, will that mean I'll be able to get a train direct from Finsbury Park to London Bridge and Gatwick?
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Post by bringbackcrouchhil on Nov 29, 2009 17:39:57 GMT
How come there is only one track between two platforms at Finsbury Park (e.g. using above diagram between platforms 4&5, 6&7 and 1&-1)?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2009 17:46:13 GMT
When the Thameslink project is done, will that mean I'll be able to get a train direct from Finsbury Park to London Bridge and Gatwick? Yes... in theory, and assuming that the link to the Great Northern services actually happens and doesn't get cut to save money on the new rolling stock needed. |
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Post by andypurk on Nov 29, 2009 22:14:52 GMT
How come there is only one track between two platforms at Finsbury Park (e.g. using above diagram between platforms 4&5, 6&7 and 1&-1)? There are several possible reasons, it makes boarding / alighting quicker, it allows interchange on one side and exit on another. I would imagine that separation of interchange from exit is the likely reason at Finsbury Park. There are several examples on TfL, such as White City, where there are three tracks with an island platform between the Westbound and center track and between the center track and the Eastbound. The new platform at Tower Gateway uses one side for exit and the other for boarding. |
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Post by bringbackcrouchhil on Nov 29, 2009 23:24:44 GMT
That seems a bit unlikely given that a majority of these platforms are not used. I imagine there is a historical reason...
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Post by andypurk on Nov 30, 2009 0:10:25 GMT
I was talking about when the platforms were in use. There are no services on the Canonbury lines anymore, so no need for easy interchange to the outer tracks.
Now, the only track with a 'viable' platform either side is the down slow and this only has the doors opened on platform 5.
The new Central line platform at Stratford will give another location where there is a single track with platforms either side. Here, one face will give interchange to/from National Rail and the other easy access to the Jubilee line and DLR and the exit.
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Post by Chris M on Nov 30, 2009 22:08:28 GMT
There are several locations on National Rail where there are platforms either side of a single track (the bay at Greenford, the west-facing bay at Reading, and at least one through track at Guildford come to mind). As far as I know though at none of them are the doors opened on both sides on trains with driver/guard operated doors.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 1, 2009 10:57:19 GMT
There are several locations on National Rail where there are platforms either side of a single track . As far as I know though at none of them are the doors opened on both sides on trains with driver/guard operated doors. I can't see how they would have been operated in the days of slam-door stock - if the guard cannot give the Right Away until he can see all the doors are shut and there are no last minuters making a dash for it - on both sides at once! As I mentioned before, Norwood Junction is another example, allowing both cross-platform interchange between the West Croydon - London Bridge and East Croydon - Crystal Palace routes, and direct access to the street exit. But at FP both platforms are islands so the only reason I can see for a double-sided platform at Finsbury Park is to allow two X-platform interchanges. Why this should be needed with only two routes to from the south? Well, if some trains terminated at FP - perhaps from the Ally Pally line? - the middle platform could be used by (say) Hertford-Broad Street trains, allowing connections to/from Hatfield-KX-(Moorgate) trains on one side, and from the Northern Heights on the other. |
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Post by citysig on Dec 1, 2009 11:38:30 GMT
I can't see how they would have been operated in the days of slam-door stock - if the guard cannot give the Right Away until he can see all the doors are shut and there are no last minuters making a dash for it - on both sides at once! But by the same token, even if one platform/side is "out of use" then unless all doors on that side were locked, the guard would still have to check for any door / person using the "closed" platform. I am sure the presence of platform staff made things a little easier. If i had a pound for every time, on arrival at Finsbury Park, people have almost missed their stop by trying to open doors onto platform 4. Some even continue to try even after the doors behind them have opened onto platform 5. You can't blame them really. There is no signage to tell you the doors won't be opening on that side, and to all intents and purposes the platform looks "open" (which of course it is, as platform 3 forms the other half of that island and is served by trains.) LU's platforms of this sort are generally only used on one side to a)provide consistency for people alighting and boarding b)to save the time taken for a train to serve the platform and depart (longer if both sides are open) and c)OPO equipment is generally only installed to service one side, therefore a train operator would not be able to safely dispatch the train by themselves. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 1, 2009 14:08:56 GMT
There is no signage to tell you the doors won't be opening on that [platform 4] side, and the platform looks "open" (which of course it is, as platform 3 forms the other half of that island and is served by trains.) Seems odd that platform 5 is used instead of platform 4, as it requires more staff to cover both platforms, and makes life more difficult for passengers changing trains. |
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Post by citysig on Dec 2, 2009 13:06:28 GMT
Platform 5 is used as it is adjacent (on the same island) as platform 6, which is served by Welwyn / Hertford North inner-suburban services. The interchange between the 2 is quite heavily used (normally in the direction King's Cross > Finsbury Park > Inner Suburban service).
If ex-Kings Cross services open on the platform 4 side only, this would mean many more people having to use the subway to get to platform 6, and would probably mean many would miss their connection.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 2, 2009 13:19:17 GMT
Platform 5 is used as it is adjacent (on the same island) as platform 6, which is served by Welwyn / Hertford North inner-suburban services. The interchange between the 2 is quite heavily used (normally in the direction King's Cross > Finsbury Park > Inner Suburban service). Ah, light dawns! When you said Platform 3 is used by trains, I assumed you meant that those trains called at FP. If the connecting rains are on platform 6, the ones on platform 3 are passing through non-stop - in that case there is a very good reason for not opening the doors on platform 4! |
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Post by ducatisti on Dec 2, 2009 13:35:08 GMT
Is it parcels-related? FWIW Guildford used to have a decent ammount of parcels traffic and it usually went onto platform 6/7 to allow faster unloading.
On busy underground stations, would it make sense to open one side as an alighting platform and then the other as a boarding platform. Which would be rather reminiscent of the porting arrangements on a two-stroke engine...
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Post by citysig on Dec 2, 2009 19:41:46 GMT
Ah, light dawns! When you said Platform 3 is used by trains, I assumed you meant that those trains called at FP. If the connecting rains are on platform 6, the ones on platform 3 are passing through non-stop - in that case there is a very good reason for not opening the doors on platform 4! Trains do call at FP platform 3 ;D Not as many as platform 5 - although weekends and late evening tend to have fairly regular platform 3 stoppers. Platform 1 is generally slow services from the north, and Moorgate trains. Platform 2 sees semi-fast services from the north plus non-stopping trains. Platform 3 sees the odd northbound fast service plus non-stopping trains. Platform 4 is not used. Platform 5 hosts all slow northbound services, plus the majority of semi-fast services booked to call at Finsbury Park. Platform 6 is for Hertford/Welwyn inner-suburban services. |
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Post by citysig on Dec 2, 2009 19:45:37 GMT
On busy underground stations, would it make sense to open one side as an alighting platform and then the other as a boarding platform. Which would be rather reminiscent of the porting arrangements on a two-stroke engine... Even though on one side everyone would be getting off, staff would still need to be able to ensure all those getting off had got off (and clear of the doors) before closing them and opening the other side. This would involve additional staff / OPO equipment. Then, unfortunately there would be the handful of people who would attempt to jump the queue and board from the "alighting side." In a more civilised age, it wouldn't have happened, everyone would behave properly and maybe this sort of system would work ;D |
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