mrfs42
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Big Hair Day
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 13, 2009 8:18:46 GMT
I've just completed putting the latest batch of TTNs into the database-of-much confusion - in doing so I noticed that during reversing at East Finchley, T/Ops had to step back 5 trains. i can't immediately recall any other timetable that has had such a long/large stepping back: I've a vague memory of 4 trains in a couple of timetables - can anyone recall anything similar: stepping back 5 or more trains? Correct that vague memory; I've found a clutch of Jubilee TTNs that were based around 4 train stepping back.  |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 13, 2009 10:40:27 GMT
In complete contrast, the new DR WTT138 (from 13 Dec.) has stepping back- onto the same train, 1 trip later!
A break for the drivers of around 25mins.
M-F T151 07.16-10.14 High Street Kensington.
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Post by citysig on Oct 13, 2009 11:08:21 GMT
There's lots of "hidden" stepping back already on the H&C / Circle. Quite often you go looking to reform the service and are told the train you're attempting to make right time needs the driver of the train behind it! It's less than it used to be, but still a pain. The benefits of stepping-back on the real railway quite often fall well short of what the timetable planners expected. As is pointed out elsewhere on here, the new Jubilee timetable will have stepping-back at Stratford. Whilst it may increase frequency, there's nothing worse than splitting drivers up from their trains. If a driver brings a train in, he will (usually  ) remember where he left it. With stepping back you introduce the other dimension of him then needing to "find" his new train. |
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mrfs42
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Big Hair Day
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 13, 2009 12:07:14 GMT
In complete contrast, the new DR WTT138 (from 13 Dec.) has stepping back- onto the same train, 1 trip later! A break for the drivers of around 25mins. M-F T151 07.16-10.14 High Street Kensington. I've seen that before; though not just with an Olympia service. Possibly with Marble Arch - Liv. St shorties or the Loughton - Epping shuttles: the details are lost somewhere in the three million or so timetabled trains I've got in the library. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2009 17:55:29 GMT
Brilliant idea stepping back 5 trains, that should happen at Aldgate.
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Post by citysig on Oct 30, 2009 9:26:54 GMT
Brilliant idea stepping back 5 trains, that should happen at Aldgate. Why? Please expand on your theory... |
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mrfs42
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Big Hair Day
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 30, 2009 9:33:05 GMT
Perfect time to get out to street level, smoke a couple of tabs and then head back underneath for another trudge into the drudge of Metroland?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2009 13:47:05 GMT
Brilliant idea stepping back 5 trains, that should happen at Aldgate. Why? Please expand on your theory... 1. Early morning the service out of the city northbound is always late, just think of the time you could make-up by reforming trains early. 2. Short meal-relief's for drivers would be a thing of the past. 3. The end-of-line stations would actually get a decent after-peak service. |
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Post by Harsig on Oct 30, 2009 14:35:16 GMT
Why? Please expand on your theory... 1. Early morning the service out of the city northbound is always late, just think of the time you could make-up by reforming trains early. 2. Short meal-relief's for drivers would be a thing of the past. 3. The end-of-line stations would actually get a decent after-peak service. That all sounds wonderful, right up to the moment you get a shut down that prevents trains reaching Aldgate and then it all goes very badly wrong; its bad enough when you step back two trains. |
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Post by citysig on Oct 31, 2009 10:58:51 GMT
Indeed. Much of the late running coming back from Aldgate is not always down the late-running going into Aldgate.
A right time train heading in may have to make a train 2 trains before, and thus incurs that service's late running. Imagine if it had to make up a train 5 trains before.
You will still get late-running, gaps to the service etc.etc. just that drivers may see the odd improvement in off-train time at Aldgate. Might be good for the odd driver who wants to go out for a longer smoke, but not so good for the rest of us.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2009 14:17:18 GMT
Indeed. Much of the late running coming back from Aldgate is not always down the late-running going into Aldgate. A right time train heading in may have to make a train 2 trains before, and thus incurs that service's late running. Imagine if it had to make up a train 5 trains before. You will still get late-running, gaps to the service etc.etc. just that drivers may see the odd improvement in off-train time at Aldgate. Might be good for the odd driver who wants to go out for a longer smoke, but not so good for the rest of us. At the moment you have 2 "spare" drivers at step back time, these 2 drivers can reform 2 trains. If however you have 5 "spare" drivers with stepping back 5 trains, you can reform so many more trains therefore getting the service/trains leaving Aldgate on-time. ;D You could even send 1 of the drivers to Moorgate and reform a reversing train there because that driver will have enough time to get there. |
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Post by ruislip on Oct 31, 2009 14:41:48 GMT
I'm still going to predict that one day in the near future, the Piccadilly will introduce stepping back, at least during the peaks, at Cockfosters.
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Post by Harsig on Oct 31, 2009 15:01:28 GMT
Indeed. Much of the late running coming back from Aldgate is not always down the late-running going into Aldgate. A right time train heading in may have to make a train 2 trains before, and thus incurs that service's late running. Imagine if it had to make up a train 5 trains before. You will still get late-running, gaps to the service etc.etc. just that drivers may see the odd improvement in off-train time at Aldgate. Might be good for the odd driver who wants to go out for a longer smoke, but not so good for the rest of us. At the moment you have 2 "spare" drivers at step back time, these 2 drivers can reform 2 trains. If however you have 5 "spare" drivers with stepping back 5 trains, you can reform so many more trains therefore getting the service/trains leaving Aldgate on-time. ;D But have you noticed that this is never done just to achieve a right time departure from Aldgate. Generally reforms are only carried out as part of the stepping back as a direct result of trains arriving at Aldgate out of timetable sequence or because an incoming service is cancelled. The reason is that when you commence reforming the service in the fashion you suggest you effectively cancel two departures from Aldgate (which may lead to unacceptable intervals on one or more of the Met's branches) and when you wish to finish reforming the service you have no choice but to make up the two cancelled trains which will now be exceedingly late with the concomitant risk that the two drivers concerned, who have been waiting at Aldgate for the duration of your reformations, will be less than gruntled that they have been made so late just to benefit the other drivers by allowing them to depart on time. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2009 16:15:32 GMT
The Bakerloo line during the tunnel strengthening project was shut Picc Circus to Elephant so the entire service was reversing off the platform at Picc. IIRC it involved stepping back 3 or 4 trains (scratches head trying to remember - I was a driver on the Bakerloo at the time).
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Post by citysig on Oct 31, 2009 18:05:57 GMT
The Bakerloo line during the tunnel strengthening project was shut Picc Circus to Elephant so the entire service was reversing off the platform at Picc. IIRC it involved stepping back 3 or 4 trains (scratches head trying to remember - I was a driver on the Bakerloo at the time). And this gives an example of an area where stepping back is beneficial to the service. 1 Line. 1 Platform available. All trains coming in timetable order. Trains arriving and departing in a very short space of time allowing maximum use of the platform. Aldgate is different in that trains often arrive out of timetable order. They reform and leave the platform and more often than not they are destined for a different destination from whence the original train came. The only real advantage to stepping back at Aldgate is reduced platform occupation time. The "spare" drivers are never really genuinly "spare." They do have duties and trains that they should be driving, and using them as you would use a "spare" could mean they get off at a different time than when they should. Now if we stepped back 2 trains at Aldgate and were given 5 spare train operators on top of the stepping back operators, then of course we could easily reform out of any disruption. But when you consider the number of times each week when all 5 would be required, and what use we could actually make of them, you may understand why the company has not, so far, made such an investment. |
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Phil
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RIP 23-Oct-2018
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Post by Phil on Oct 31, 2009 22:58:37 GMT
Aldgate is different in that trains often arrive out of timetable order. Now you've got me intrigued! At what point do they become 'out of timetable order'? I presume it must be as far back as HotH since once past there they are effectively on a single line (with H&C/Circles accepted). Does that not give you controllers enough time/space to get any reforms planned before they even get to Aldgate? And does that therefore also mean that trains in practice leave Harrow S/B in 'first in first out' order despite the timetable? |
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Post by Harsig on Nov 1, 2009 7:32:24 GMT
Aldgate is different in that trains often arrive out of timetable order. Now you've got me intrigued! At what point do they become 'out of timetable order'? I presume it must be as far back as HotH since once past there they are effectively on a single line (with H&C/Circles accepted). Does that not give you controllers enough time/space to get any reforms planned before they even get to Aldgate? And does that therefore also mean that trains in practice leave Harrow S/B in 'first in first out' order despite the timetable? The last point where Mets can become 'out of turn' is Neasden (Trains exiting depot might be late and on time trains on the main will be routed first. Or vice versa). The most common point for the trains to become out of turn is Wembely Park, where the fast and local lines merge. This is particularly true in the morning peak where trains ex the local line all originate on the Uxbridge Branch while trains on the fast all come from Watford or Amersham/Chesham, thus a delay on one of the branches will innevitably result in trains being out of turn south of Wembley. Out of turn working can also commence at Harrow but this is more likely during the evening peak as southbound local line services at that time of day originate on both the Watford and Uxbridge Branches. As you surmise, once they are past Neasden the order is fixed and the relevant reforms can be planned. However if one if these trains is subsequently short-tripped, say at Moorgate, it becomes a cancellation at Aldgate and this triggers a whole different series of reforms and this can happen at relatively short notice. |
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Post by citysig on Nov 1, 2009 8:27:40 GMT
Does that not give you controllers enough time/space to get any reforms planned before they even get to Aldgate? There's always a plan, as far as can be, but we all know what happens if you plan too far ahead - especially in the peak with our level of service. As Harsig says, there are always other short-notice short-trippings that can interfere with "the plan." I challenge anyone to watch the southbound at, say Willesden Green and accurately predict the northbound running order - taking into account the trains passing through Baker Street, the city, Aldgate, then back through Baker Street. Obviously if there is a late-runner that is obviously going to be late on the north and may cause a gap, it can be planned for as far as possible. But anymore than that and you're really in crystal ball territory. Another point that is often missed, is that we run mainly a commuter railway. In the morning, people want to come from the north and west and get to the city. In the evening it's reversed. Outside of these times, especially in term-time, apart from a few locations on the Uxbridge branch, there are very few people out there. So in the morning, out-of-order trains heading south won't be touched unless really necessary. Some will be put back into order heading north, simply by being "stepped back/forward" at Aldgate. Some may still be out of order and running late, and may require attention, such as short-tripping northbound. Reformations are all well and good, but as I touched on, we don't have an endless supply of drivers who have no specific task that day. If we turn a late running 420 into a right-time 421, then at some point, another late train will have to make 420 either right-time, or be short-tripped. The 420 man will not appreciate being taken off a late train and put on to an even later one that doesn't get turned, as he maybe due to finish his duty, or may have to pick up a different train in an hour or so. |
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) remember where he left it. With stepping back you introduce the other dimension of him then needing to "find" his new train.
